Dating Down: More Than Just Ratios?
It's his swag, not his emotional support.
Last night as I was debating what to write about, a Nigerian friend (Yeah, I like to draw distinctions sometimes) sent me an interesting relationship article about attractive people dating not so attractive people and the reasons behind it. This particular piece (Pause) focused more so on hot women dating not so hot men. It doesn’t sound like a new idea, but what made this article, titled Dating Down by Elise Nersesian-Sole, keep my attention was that it went beyond blaming the dating down phenomenon on the ratio of women to men. Instead it pointed to specific behaviors that not so hot men are likely to display when paired with an aesthetically superior significant other. So for simplicity sake, I’m going to share a few excerpts from the article and my thoughts then open it up for discussion. If you’d like to read the original article in its entirety, click here.
“It’s possible that a man who is less attractive than his partner feels so grateful to be with her that he works harder to maintain the relationship, amping up the amount of emotional support and kindness he provides,” says Benjamin R. Karney, Ph.D., a professor of social psychology at UCLA. “Yet a man who is better looking than his partner knows he has lots of other options besides his mate, so he’s less committed to providing the emotional support long term relationships need to thrive.”
I mean…I get the whole if you’re weak in certain areas that you often have to overcompensate in other areas to keep the playing field level, but really? I think men in general know that they have a lot of options as long as they don’t look like they live where the wild things are. There are a lot of average to smedium men that have extremely high levels of confidence in their ability to pull girls regardless of who they’re with. I don’t know any man who fights to keep his girl just because she’s hot. If anything, the men I know would be less likely to deal with a super bad one because of all the issues and/or drama it would create for him. If he’s going the extra mile to lend emotional support, it because he sees a lot more value than what’s on the surface. We bend our backs for what make us feel good…not just what looks good. Maybe that’s just because of he age I am at though.
“In fact, among couples where the husband was the looker, both partners supported each other less,” says Karney. “That implies when the husband disengages emotionally, the wife follows suit. Then no one is happy — it’s a vicious cycle.”
Women shut down quicker than men. We just typically appear to be apathetic and/or logical along the way. I will agree that this is a vicious cycle of unhappiness that typically won’t be resolved until the man goes above and beyond to prove he’s there emotionally.
Karney chalks up the relationship between a female goddess and a less beautiful man to The Social Exchange Theory: Simply put, people use a cost-benefit analysis when they think about entering or staying in a relationship. So a man might not rival Robert Pattinson in the looks department but if he’s willing to please, emotionally engaged, and loyal, a woman will probably overlook his looks when deciding to pursue him.
Sh*t, as she should. Men really do want the same…just switch out “emotionally engaged” with down to stroke the ego and whatever else needs it without hesitation because he likes it. And yes, you can stroke a man’s ego without lying to him.
If nothing else, you may find that your not-so-pretty man brings his A-game in the bedroom. “What I’ve seen from my clinical practice is that women who are married to men less attractive than them often have happy sex lives most likely because their mate tries harder to please them sexually,” says Bethany Marshall, Ph.D., author of the book Deal Breakers.
D*ck does make women delirious. And since she is probably only using him for that since the model hasn’t walked through the door, he has no choice but to sling pipe right. And I honestly think women are more likely to leave a man over bad pumpington than a man is to leave over poor cooch. Yeah, I said it. The evidence: go to any blog posts where it references s*xual experiences and read what the women say. It’s a slam fest…and not in the way she’d like.
I urge you to check out the whole article if you have the time. But for today, what do you think of these points in the article and my responses? Do you think women really date down more than men? I ask because I see a lot of chicks complaining about who a guy is with. Also, do you really think less than superior looks really lead a significant other to try harder? What other factors are at play?
Average Looking,
58 Responses to “Dating Down: More Than Just Ratios?”
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Max touched on this and I will borrow from her. When the men is less attractive he simply breaks the woman into manageable pieces. I’ll add a caveat, if he has the self confidence to do it.
I could see the logic behind the theories.
I also read that most people end up with someone no more than 2 standard deviations away from where they are on the attractiveness scale (1-10).
Something to nibble on.
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max Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:13 am
You took the words out of my mouth!
This is the greatest #swindle of all time.
Yes it’s possible that “I…a man who is less attractive than his partner feels so grateful to be with her that he works harder to maintain the relationship, amping up the amount of emotional support and kindness he provides…” but it’s far more likely that he will try to break her down so that she’ll be the one putting in extra work to please him.
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Miss Jenkins Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:34 am
but it’s far more likely that he will try to break her down so that she’ll be the one putting in extra work to please him.
Break her down? How so?
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max Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:55 am
Quoting my post about what happens when a pretty girl dates a not-so-pretty dude…”He’ll refuse to tell her she’s pretty because he doesn’t want to “gas up her head”. He’ll be distant, sketchy, and confusing until he has flipped things in such a way so as to make her behave as though she’s the one at the bottom of the ladder.”
Basically he’ll do all he can to make her feel insecure about the relationship so that if anyone’s putting in extra work, it’s her.
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QueenT Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:33 am
YUP! THIS RIGHT HERE!
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:39 am
Hmm, this is interesting. I don’t even have a response right now. These effin’ mind games though…I hate ‘em.
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LaBakir Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:43 am
Damn Max…excellent point/observation
I’m just gonna cop one of those helment like Magneto. Protect my mind.
These mind games are wack.
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Please Excuse Your Significant Other Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:49 am
I kinda dig that you know who Magneto is
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LaBakir Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:58 am
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Reecie Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:13 am
tabernacle. church. synagogue.
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A.Smith Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:20 am
What Reecie said
And throw in a mosque.
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D*ck does make women delirious.
^^^Hollered!
Do you think women really date down more than men?
^^^I’ve “dated down” back in HS…but he was a nerd & i love them so! I tend to see more women with less attractive men (one of the lurkiest & ugliest dudes i know has baby mamas…i can’t even fathom who would even allow him to touch them) but i also know dudes who have “dated down” (some of which i’ve dealt with and never understood).
Also, do you really think less than superior looks really lead a significant other to try harder?
^^^I don’t really know about this one…I think a person will try hard regardless if they believe that person is worth the effort that may not be solely based on looks.
What other factors are at play?
^^^I think that people will do what they feel is necessary to keep a person in their lives/in a relationship, even if something about that person is less than savory. I know a lot of people who deal with some not so great people because of the fear of being alone (you’d be shocked at the power it holds if you don’t believe in it) and just so they can say they are in a relationship or a consistent supply of chex.
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Dating down only works if the guy/gal remains humble which in my opinion is a rare occurrence.
Because I like to be succinct.
Muth@fukas start forgetting they are unattractive once they start f#cking attractive.
Happy (thirsty) Thursday everyone!
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Please Excuse Your Significant Other Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 8:29 am
“Muth@fukas start forgetting they are unattractive once they start f#cking attractive.”
All types of truthage
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S0_Flyy Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Amen!
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“Do you think women really date down more than men?”
No one knows. But what we do know is that women complain about it more. When a man sees an ugly dude w/ a bad joint, i think we just chalk it to him being really nice/funny and wearing her down, him being mandingo and wearing her down or him being rich and wearing her down. Or maybe he has game like a sports bra. But w/e the reason men dont harp on it, b/c wuite frankily most men careless about who some other dude is fcuking
unless the trizzie is fittin to pop.Women take an ugly broad w/ an attractive dude to heart because of the huge emotional/financial investment that they make in themselves to make them more attractive. It makes all of their gym time, and getting nails done, and sitting under the dryer, and not swimming in the pool for naught. Women have been told that this is what it takes to get a man or to be successful; this and to be pretty. So when they see a woman who is successful w/o all of that they throw shade. There was a famous fashion designer who said “I dress for women and undress for men”. Women apply this to life and this is part of the problem.
Also, do you really think less than superior looks really lead a significant other to try harder? – It’s not actual, realized superior looks. Its what the person thinks they look like. I’d concede that ugly to effort is correlative but I seriously doubt that they are causative.
There are too many factors at play in relationships to say that this is the only or main factor in the effort placed in relationships
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Miss Jenkins Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Women take an ugly broad w/ an attractive dude to heart because of the huge emotional/financial investment that they make in themselves to make them more attractive.
I want to talk to these women you speak of.
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Please Excuse Your Significant Other Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Come to Bk, i’ll introduce you. A Belle in Bk hit on it earlier this week and also, there were a few articles calling the uglier or plainer gf “dry toast”
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Miss Jenkins Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:59 am
send me links please.
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Please Excuse Your Significant Other Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:50 am
Its in Sister Toldja’s timeline. Cant find it right now
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A.Smith Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:58 am
I think you’re on to something, here, Peyso. Makes perfectly good sense that women who have been told time and time again they have to do x to get y are gonna be a little upset when they see a woman who didn’t do x but still got y…
This goes back to the post Seattle did about pretty girls bringing more to the table — in the comments we got off on girls telling their friends they’re ugly so they don’t try to go for more than they should. Streetz mentioned that while a dude’s friends might tell him he’s ugly that won’t stop him from getting girls… that flip don’t work for women.
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Dating down happens…but, the bottom line is once a man THINKS he has YOU…all bets are off. LOL.
A woman in love has the ability to see Boris Kodjoe when in fact she is dating Spike Lee..women are just different in that way..if we love you..we think you are the most handsome man in the world..and when we don’t love you anymore..you are a one-eyed toothless monster…lol. In the beginning we will give an ugly dude a chance based on his swag and what we may perceive as his confidence…we may react on sheer chemistry alone without regard for looks as much…..
Men are very visual and in the beginning will put more emphasis on looks..until they fall in love with you..its mostly about your exterior and how you make them feel when they’re around you…but it takes awhile for them to get to that point where they are looking beyond your exterior and appreciating you for everything you bring to the table.
This is why you will see more women dating down..we look at the heart of the man and his potential…and ultimately women just want to be loved, respected and appreciated..and we are drawn to a man that appears to want to give that to us..no matter what the packaging.
I guess I am in agreement with some of theories brought forth about dating down especially with regards to women doing it.
Good Post my brotha!
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S0_Flyy Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:27 am
Truth 1:
A woman in love has the ability to see Boris Kodjoe when in fact she is dating Spike Lee…
Truth 2:
if we love you..we think you are the most handsome man in the world..and when we don’t love you anymore..you are a one-eyed toothless monster.
Queen kilt me dead. But is all true. I am SoFlyy & I co-sign this statement.
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Hmmm…I don’t know about more women dating down. If that was the case, I’d assume there would be a lot less single women out there.
I dated a dude who I typically wouldn’t find handsome…but we were friends first so I suppose that doesn’t count (b/c I knew him). Anywho, when he was doing dirt…friends (both his and mine) would be like o_O “ninja you better act right” ….but as Queen T said…once a man knows he has you…all bets are off,lol
I still can’t get with this “swag” theory. If I don’t find you attractive…that’s it. Will your swag deflect the yellowness of your teeth, perhaps the size of your nose…or adult acne? Are women seriously dating men they have no physical attraction to b/c he has a good heart?1
Maybe I’m shallow. *shrugs*
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S0_Flyy Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 9:46 am
I was thinking the SAME thing. I’m starting to think I might be shallow. I mean the ‘swag’ of a guy & learning that he is very compassionate and sweet might add some points… changing someone from a solid 5 to a 6 give or take, but it’s not gonna increase your score exponentially. Although, I am a softie/sucker so maybe with the right words he’d have a fighting chance…
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LaBakir Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:09 am
Right…you’ll gain a point…or 2
*holds up score cards*
But if you ain’t tickling my fancy…no amount of jokes is gonna make that happen.
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:06 am
You’re very right. I explained to my homegirl the other day that men can’t
fuckfall in love with a woman’s personality. We’re visual creatures. I have to be attracted to a woman in order to even go that next step to really get to know her.Now if she’s nothing but eye candy with no filling (pause?) then that’s a different story.
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LaBakir Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Exactly. I just wish people would stop weighing so much on the whole personality bit.
You do not look at a person and think “Hmmm…he looks like he’s kind and endearing, I’m gonna holla” or “Damn…shorty look like she really knows how to hold a brother down”
NO…you think “Damn…he/she is hot” and you go from there.
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QueenT Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 12:37 pm
You ever met a guy and on sight..NO, not the cutest guy in the world..but, certainly not a monster..but, when he began to rap to you…the more he talked the more you began to see him thru a different lense? I mean there has to be chemistry of course..but, sometimes after getting to know someone with whom you didn’t think appealing AT FIRST GLANCE…somehow they gained points because they were really smart, funny, witty, nice..or all of the above…I don’t know maybe that is just my experiences.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
I had a friend who told me about this guy that tried to holler and how wack he was and then a month later she was sleeping with him and kinda dating him.lol.
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QueenT Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Yes..it happens that way sometimes! It really does!
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LaBakir Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 8:59 am
Well, what you just described was someone who I’d perceive as “just there”…someone I don’t think is attractive, but I don’t think they’re unattractive either. That person, has a chance of being looked at through a different lens.
However, I still hold my stand that if I find you unattractive, there’s really no room for negotiation. And how unfair is that to the other person for their mate to think their unattractive? Maybe I’m missing something here.
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I agree w/ most of the theories, I’ve seen a man work harder to keep his relationship in tact b/c his woman was gorgeous. The caveat though is that she was also gorgeous on the inside. She wasn’t walking all over him just b/c she could… If you allow me for a moment, I’m going to poke some holes in one of your paragraphs. Lol.
“I mean…I get the whole if you’re weak in certain areas that you often have to overcompensate in other areas to keep the playing field level, but really? I think men in general know that they have a lot of options as long as they don’t look like they live where the wild things are. (This is true, but more than likely he’s thinking that as a solid 5 who says that he’ll have a chance at his 9.95 woman again) There are a lot of average to smedium men that have extremely high levels of confidence in their ability to pull girls regardless of who they’re with. I don’t know any man who fights to keep his girl just because she’s hot. (Her being hot may not be the only reason… could be additional, even though this is the basis of his thesis no one dates someone based on looks alone. Incidentally, I have seen what appears to be a not so hot man dating a hot girl & seemingly putting in MORE effort than the average man would.) If anything, the men I know would be less likely to deal with a super bad one because of all the issues and/or drama it would create for him. (He really gon turn down a solid 9 when he’s a 5?? I don’t see it.) If he’s going the extra mile to lend emotional support, it because he sees a lot more value than what’s on the surface. We bend our backs for what make us feel good…not just what looks good. Maybe that’s just because of he age I am at though.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:28 am
Ehh, a guy will sleep with a 9 or 10 with the quickness. Entering into a committed relationship is a completely different mind set.
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Ugly dudes stay winnin.
Post to come next week (Pause)
Thank you sir Slim the Swift (All types of Pause)
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Queen T: “Men are very visual and in the beginning will put more emphasis on looks..until they fall in love with you..its mostly about your exterior and how you make them feel when they’re around you”
I was waiting for the article to state the obvious. Women aren’t visual creatures like men are. Women love a tall man with a six-pack and all, but there’s a reason why men watch actual p0rn and women are far more likely to indulge in the emotional p0rn of Lifetime movies and romance novels.
I was reading through this article and just couldn’t believe the naivete of the writer. Just because a man is lower than a woman on the attractiveness scale doesn’t mean she’s dating down. The average woman is attracted to power, fame and wealth over looks, and even with looks, charm and personality can overcome that. Appear on a reality show and you’ll have all kinds of women checking you out. I’m no connoiseur of men, but when you have black women talking about how fine Lil’ Wayne is and white women talking about how fine Danny Gokey is, I wonder if they have been sniffing glue.
The writer also overlooks the alpha male phenomenon. If a crowd of women are at a park watching guys play basketball, or even in a work setting, many women are most attracted to the best ball player or the boss, often without regard to their physical appearance. Most women are always going to be attracted to the leader of the pack.
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Just based on observation, I feel like I have seen more “bad” ladies with “less bad” men. Then again, I also see lots of pretty couples who look like they could be related cuz they look so much alike. Yall know the ones I’m talking about…tall, thin, dark curlyish hair, great (and well done) eyebrows, sometimes look like they wear each other’s clothes, etc. Who picked whom in those pairs, I dunno.
I think the “I will work harder to keep this boo because she is so fine” theory probably applies to women as well. I think someone mentioned it, but it goes to the insecurities of the person, and possibly the way they get treated by the “fine” boo. *shrugs*
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three words: lit.tle.wayne.
But in all serious- I think it depends on the situation. In college I swore (and still maintain) that dudes always lucked up because there were only a handful of cuties and unless you wanted to spend your late night study hours alone- you were going to have to dive down. Yes dive.
In the real world though- I think the pairings occur (at least form the women’s side) because you realize that there are more to people than their looks. I tend to fall for my male friends or people that I spend a lot of time with so that means more often than not I’m not dating a guy who I would of talked to had he approached me on the streets. This might be true for guys but I try not to speak on what I do not know.
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Little Miss Sunshine Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 10:47 am
*wouldn’t of talked to.
Sorry I’m battling an illness while at work. **sick days for everyone!**
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The idea of dating down, dumpster diving if you will, is very interesting. I think women and men do their fair share of dating people who aren’t as attractive as they are. I’ve been out and seen men with some
mud ducksaesthitically challenged women, thetn turn the corner and see a beautiful woman with a huose elf. I think it comes down to how the less attractive partner makes the partner feel within their relationship. This is about relationships, not hook-ups, and in relationships, there are many more factors at play.Of course, beauty is subjective. I might think a man is an 8, and the next chick might think he’s a 4.5. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. #NIAshrug
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:23 am
“This is about relationships, not hook-ups, and in relationships, there are many more factors at play.”
I think this point is getting missed. With the exception of one chick I dated in college for 4 weeks because she was trophy-ish, there’s always been more that has led me to commit. The chick I dated more so off appearance was the worst dating decision I ever made. The 2nd worst dating experience was a similar chick that brought more to the table…both good and bad.
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N.I.A. naturally Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 11:38 am
I tried dating a pretty boy once… it was horrible. Partly because he bored me to tears, but also because he knew he was attractive, and spent way too much time shopping, grooming and ish. And he didn’t wear sneakers. For some reason, that really rubbed me the wrong way. lol.
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LaBakir Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
He didn’t wear sneakers? Humph.
I’ve never dated a pretty boy…but I’ve dated dudes that damn near every female was like “he can get it”.
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N.I.A. naturally Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
but I’ve dated dudes that damn near every female was like “he can get it”.
Oh, he was that type of dude. And that should have been my first clue that things weren’t going to work out. A pretty face and a nice body doesn’t mean ish when it comes to compatibility in relationships.
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It sounds horrible to say and trust when I say it’s not my ego speaking, but I married “down”. The fact that my ex-husband knew I wasn’t very physically attracted to him, that I would constantly be approached even when he was with me, that people would actually say things to me about me being able to do better, etc. did not drive him to be a better husband. It didn’t make him want to step his game up to make sure he kept me. It made him a little more insecure every day, and eventually paranoia set in.
I would think men in this situation would either sway towards being insecure/paranoid or towards breaking her down like Max said. Those are sometimes the abusive men (whether physical or emotional) who will “fatten” their girl up so nobody else will want them. I’m sure there are some who will put in extra work, but I’d think a major imbalance in attractiveness would be more detrimental than anything.
Also, I cannot begin to stress how much I love The Beauty and the Beast.
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another point is that just because OTHERS find a person attractive, doesn’t mean they view themselves that way and vice versa. I think there are plenty of gorgeous on the outside people that just don’t see that in themselves and goolie monsters that think they are that deal–they attract what they put out maybe?If they have the confidence and personality to back it up, of course they can pull someone that makes outsiders double take–but like NIA said, in relationships there is so much more that whats on the surface.
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This is a great post. I read this article a few weeks ago and it is indeed very interesting and has some truths to it.
#thatisallfortoday
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i like to think that i’m a fairly attractive person (my momma told me so). i would also like to think that on the proverbial scale that most of the women i’ve dated are attractive as well. i don’t date down. i don’t see the point. if you think that’s shallow then i’ll be shallow then. as far as dating up, i’d be hard pressed to find someone who is THAT much more attractive than me #onmycockyish (also again my momma told me so).
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L. Dejean Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
My dad told me that he doesn’t have any unattractive children because he himself is not an unattractive man…he is quite sure of himself but i don’t think the women he encounters (even my friends) give him a reason not to be. My mom is not so sure of herself but she is a beautiful woman (guess that’s the book i took a page from *shrug*).
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MadScientist7 Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 5:01 pm
yep i doubt i’ll have any unattractive children as well.
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L. Dejean Reply:
July 30th, 2010 at 2:49 am
i feel the same way about when I have children.
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I think my sister is dating down…but the person is kinda not a dude, like doesn’t own a peen unless its rubber…but dresses like one…=0/
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I don’t agree AT ALL with the article. Sure it’s “logical” but totally ignores the role of human society in human behavior. Firstly, is this relative a*s scale of “more attractive” and “less attractive.” If someone else looks at my mate and isn’t attracted, THEY might say I’m dating down, but to me she may look extremely gorgeous. We’re talking about opinions on physical appearance and trying to place it on some static scale. Sorry, that doesn’t work… It’s never about looks thought, it’s about genetic diversity. Which can’t be determined simply by someone’s looks. That’s only a small part of the human genome.
That said, all the article implies that a person’s perceived looks in relation to their mate determines their behavior. Which includes, guess what… temperament. Let’s keep it moving though. So many African American women say, “Why is that Black man with that UGLY, FAT white girl?!?!” So to subscribe to the behaviors in the article, you admit that given a white girl my feel “grateful” to be with a good-looking black man, she acts docile, etc… That would also mean that African American women are more aggressive due to their looks (read: skin color). However, we all know that it’s not true or fair to make assumptions of temperament/socio-economic status/intelligence/etc based on one’s physical appearance. I don’t agree with the implications of the article. A person’s temperament/behavior isn’t determined by their physical appearance.
Now what does affect what’s attractive to a woman is her image of her father. Women have said this… It’s understood that generally women want a guy like their fathers either in physical appearance or behavior or both.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 4:51 pm
Long time no see.
You make some good points in this comment. The only scale of attractiveness I’ve seen scientifically done was the one that measured the symmetry of faces.
A lot of this is relative and I think the article does have some holes and some good points, which is why I brought it up for debate. The father part is interesting when you consider relationships vs. just s*x.
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I don’t agree with article either because decent balck men are commodities these days, whether strikingly handsome or just barely jive awight looking dudes and carry it as if a brawd better be grateful etc. not all but alot know with numbers alone they have a great advantage and some fully exploit that…
all of that aside, too much catering = sweetcaking, being a simp or a weenie a s s dude…there is a distinct difference between treating a woman right.proper and kissing her a s s/being a pressed doormat.
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Orange Star Happy Hunting Reply:
July 29th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Regardless of looks!!!!
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I only agree with it being a vicious cycle. I tried “dating down” so to say but that ol’ ninja head got big and he thought he was the ish because he bagged “my real name here” (I was kinda cool back in the day) inevitably we split an he was scooped up faster than a bad sitcom on TBS.
But SLIM, I agree. Its what is on the inside that makes you put your best foot forward. Personally, it shouldnt matter who you date. if you commit to someone you have to COMMIT! All of yourself. And if you can’t, keep swingin’ freely on the dating field.
An about being “attractive” beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people don’t agree with my past decisions but they did the job for me (until they didn’t) Its also known that how someone looks on the outside can be easily influenced by how amazing they are on the inside.
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