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Well In The Good Book It Says…
Hi, my name is Seattle Washington and I’m a non-practicing Christian. I was baptized Catholic, proceeded through Catholic school for the majority of my adolescent as well as teen life and somewhere around high school my faith in the organized religion of Catholicism fell off the spectrum. Could it have been the racist priests and brothers I encountered on a daily basis during high school? Perhaps. Maybe it was the rampant accusations of child molestation that were running through the media like wild fire around the same time? Could be. Or was it that my own personal beliefs in what was right and wrong began to clash with what my religion’s leader deemed to be the “correct path”? Maybe. What I can say for sure is that the last point is one of the bigger reasons why I haven’t looked back since leaving.
This same thought was rekindled during Right Coast Lex Steel’s discussion of the issues between Brown and Black people. Specifically when one reader, Cheekz$, voiced his issue with Black folk’s not supporting California’s Gay Rights legislature and how contradictory it is. Many folks cited that it was of Black people’s religious views, since our culture is so deeply rooted in the Church. Well, I ask you Three Ways readers – when do you begin to put your own ideas of what is right and wrong before the scripture? Or can you at all?
Since we’re on the topic, I’ll just continue on with it so we have an example to throw around. I’m for Gay Rights. I don’t believe any human being should have basic civil rights taken away from them on the basis of their race, color, creed or sexual orientation. However in the Bible, a human author clearly wrote that homosexuality is blasphemous. And once again, that’s where religion and I differ. I highly doubt that Jesus would befriend and take in a well-known whore, be cool with the lepers, talk to the sleaziest of merchants, but tell the masses to light the gay dude on fire as soon as they were done eating their bread and fish. Not to mention the Bible was written by his disciples and not by Jesus or God himself. But, that’s another story for another time.
Will you catch me at the next Pride Parade? No. I’m just not a fan of the mistreatment of any human being. My spirituality won’t let me go there. Furthermore, as a Black man I know how that feels more so than many others. So should many others.
And that’s what has me frustrated with certain members of the African American community who hark back to the Bible for reasons regarding this volatile issue and many others. Yes, the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights struggle are far from one in the same. I have plenty of words for anyone that tries to blend the two together. However, regardless of how you feel about homosexuals you have to at least admit that they’re human beings and they deserve some rights. I would go so far to say that as African Americans, we should know what it’s like to be denied the most basic of rights. So we should have a better idea and more sympathy when a struggling group is fighting for rights we all take for granted. Like marriage.
The issue of choosing one’s own morality over their religious edicts is bigger than Gay Rights though. So how bout a smaller issue that we all can grasp – sex. To me if you hold fast to the Bible, Qu’ran or Torah for answers regarding Gay Rights or any other bigger issues, then you should be doing the same for everything else no? Therefore, you shouldn’t be having premarital sex. Or using contraception (if you’re Catholic) or having an abortion. If so, I find it contradictory if one can pick and choose which scriptures they’ll state to solve, refute or cause problems.
It feels like the right time to open it up to both you new and dedicated readers once again. When do you begin to put your own ideas of what is right and wrong before the scripture you follow dearly? And can you do that without being hypocritical?
Seattle – It’s More of a Guide Than An Actual History - Washington
105 Responses to “Well In The Good Book It Says…”
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I totally agree with everything that you have said. I was raised Christian, but started to wonder why God would create so many religions that oppose one another… ending in war, genocide and hate. I could be wrong… but I’ve got a feeling that that was NOT what he was trying to achieve…
I once asked a girl in HS why she thought that she could have premarital sex and still be a Christian. She said, and I quote “If you ask for forgiveness, its ok.”
O.o
So, I can KNOWINGLY and CONSCIOUSLY be a whore and commit whorish acts, but say to God, “Oh, my bad” every time… its ok?
There are good people in the world. But many people hide behind the Holy Text and justify their sinful ways by interpreting some part of it to suit their needs.
It IS Hypocrisy and they should be the last ones to judge someone else. Oh wait… the Bible says that you shouldn’t be judging folks anyway… hmm…
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CHeeKZ is licking his chomps Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Everyone under the sun knows how I feel about that religion.
I just wanted to give you a CO-SIGN!
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Wow – I completely agree with the above comment and the post. The comment is literally exactly how I feel.
I respect religion and its place in society, but the hypocrisy of a lot of religion is outstanding to me.
I learned at a very young age that religion didn’t add up. The ten commandments and then asking for forgiveness for your sins. I remember reading Fredrick Douglas and him mentioning the worst Masters were the most religious because the beat the hell out of him and then prayed for forgiveness each week. Whereas the non-religious held themselves accountable for their actions and didn’t beat him. That is EXACTLY how I feel. I hold myself accountable for my “sins,” and I define what are sins, to me. I don’t differ too far from basic ethics, ie I don’t kill, steal, cheat, lie, do drugs, intentionally try to cause harm, try my hardest not to judge others, etc etc etc.
For me, this is a great way to live because in the few instances where I have done something that didn’t feel right, I had myself to blame and no one to ask for forgiveness to. I just had to deal with it myself and realize the consequences of my actions. I’m not saying religious people can’t do this too but I don’t know – the whole prayer will let you off the hook thing is just silly.
I always wondered – so if you’re like some sociopath sadistic serial killer for 89 years and in your last 3 days of like you convert to christiananity or catholicism and beg for forgiveness…you’d be allowed into Heaven. Whereas someone like me who has lived a life of integrity and with a high standard of ethics yet didn’t follow organized religion – would burn in hell?!?!?!? If that’s the case – then the system is messed up.
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I believe in God. I don’t believe in religion or I should say “chu’ch”. I can’t understand how folks preach about forgiveness, dissecting the Bible to suit their needs and then go out and discriminate against another human being. I attended a church where I was feeling good about life, I was learning more and finding my place…until that one Sunday when the preacher, who had up until then had been (or seemed so) understanding, told us the gay people needed to be healed of their affliction….yeah, that was my last Sunday there. I just couldn’t understand why if we were all made in His image how that excluded gay people. I couldn’t wrap my mind around the premise loving someone is a sin. God is love…except when you love the same sex??? Yeah…didn’t fly with me.
I believe in God but chu’ch, the building, is something different to me. Where two or more are gathered in His name, He will be in the midst…that’s my church right there.
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Religion is socially constructed. There’s a clear difference between organized religion and personal spirituality. The two are meant to work together to be effective, organized religion without the spiritual element becomes a radical social group and spirituality without organized religion leaves you with no path to follow. If you don’t know the path you’re on, you have no conception of where you are going. It’s like being an undecided major in college. It’s not enough that you made it to a 4-year institution, you have to know where you’re going with it. It’s not enough that you’re aware of higher state of consciousness, you have to follow a path to get there.
I don’t think there’s only one path to redemption, practice what you hold to be your Truth and practice it the best you can. Religion can make any man look like a hypocrite if he doesn’t practice what he chooses to preach. Hypocrisy is everywhere in religion because every manmade system is fallible. That’s why all Good Books make reference to judging others, how it’s probably not something you want to do.
Look trick, so you like to spread ‘em threeways to the weekend and your hairdresser likes taking his while bent over, and? There’s something unnatural about all of that depending on who you ask and how they’re feeling that day. Eve wasn’t going around sucking on every man’s fruit, and Adam wasn’t trying to covet his neighbor’s husband. We’re all just trying to make it. We’re all really just trying to be happy.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 7:40 am
Damn you and your intellectual and logical response! Damn you to hell!
Just kidding.
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Sowhatiff Jenkins Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:32 am
Yeah word. I think people really forget that religion is man made; spirituality comes from within. That said, neither one should be judged by others. Either you practice/believe or you don’t. Don’t call me crazy because I do, and don’t damn him to hell because he doesn’t.
And I also agree that the God I believe in does not exist for one “religion”. There are plenty of good people in all religions who call their God by different names, but the basic principles are the same.
As far as the name example of Seattle’s good post, homosexuality is not my thing. Do I think its more “wrong” than premarital sex or calling the Lord’s name in vain. Nope. Even people who are all holier than thou forget that part of the bible that equates all sin under the eyes of God. So one is not worse than the other, if you call homozexuality a sin (which I don’t). And its not right that gay people who love each other can’t have the same rights as straight folk. Its dead wrong, and hurtful as hell I’d imagine.
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Joey Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:37 am
I dunno what was going on in that last paragraph but I totally agree with everything you said in the first 2. VERY well stated.
i got the sweetest love, there ain’t nothing sweeter… oh, sorry. your name put me in the robin thicke mood.
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Reecie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:38 am
great response. especially “I don’t think there’s only one path to redemption, practice what you hold to be your Truth and practice it the best you can. ”
I just do my best. I don’t push my beliefs on anyone else, but I do believe in fellowship and find joy in associating with individuals that love the Lord as I do. They strengthen my walk and encourage me to be better. I have always attended great churches, but I do understand those that have been to some that turn them off. Its all about your personal spiritual relationship, and for some people that doesnt have to be cultivated in a church setting.
I try my best to treat all people with respect and I believe in equality. Therefore, I’m for gay rights as well (in regards to the post topic).
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LilBrownSkin Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:51 am
Co-sign Reecie.
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Suitcase Streetz: The Fresh Prince of Palm Beach Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:46 am
I go to church. I believe in the word. I just don’t cosign everything the Catholic church says, yet I believe in its overall principles. Im spiritual as well, and I think it’s very important to have a relationship with God beyond the constructs of the church. My siblings all have a different relationship with my mom than I do, so why shouldn’t we all have a different UNIQUE relationship with “Whatever gods may be”?
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ildolceamore Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Palm Beach?! I don’t believe it.
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Very valid point. I think of myself as spiritual, but I am slowly realizing that it isn’t enough. I’m in the process of looking for a structured place that doesn’t totally go against what I believe.
Good stuff.
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Good post. I totally agree. I think when it comes to “morality” a lot of people pick and choose, which parts of the Bible they want to follow. However, I never let other people’s follies be the guide for how I live my life as a Christian and whether I attend church. The same way I could look at someone’s life and see things that I think are not very Christian like, is the same way someone could do the same to me. So I tend to avoid doing that b/c then I would be just as judgmental as the person I am accusing of being judgmental.
Also, no one is God and, therefore, no one is perfect. Sometimes b/c religion is intangible we attempt to make it tangible through what we see in other people and when that person does wrong we get all upset and say that is the problem with Christianity, Church or just religion in general. Yet, those are just intangible ideas, the real problem lies with people, which we all know are not perfect. That is the problem for a lot of people, the focus is on other people, instead of focusing on their own personal relationship with God.
So we can’t expect all Christians to be perfect or for even preachers to be perfect. There is a lot I disagree with when it comes to my pastor, but there are many other things that he preaches about that resonate with me. I am able to listen to him preach b/c I do not use him as a model for living my life. He is just a human being like me. So if he does or says anything that I do not agree with, it doesn’t bother me at all.
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Its funny that this topic comes up today because yesterday my neo asked me some similar questions and I was stumped to give him an answer, especially since our frat is based on christianity. His questions went a little something like this:
“if you died today, do you think God would let you into heaven. if you dont believe in God then do you think that you’re life so far would allow you to be rewarded in your after life? why or why not?”
Now we’ll get to those questions in a minute, however, to answer Seattle’s questions, I began to put my own ideas ahead of what is right and wrong in scripture around high school (Catholic High School). I started hanging out w/these guys then known as GOD BODY’s or The Nation Of The Gods and The Earths and they began to change my whole viewpoint of what religion and spirituality were. I stopped wanting to go to church every weekend and my mom would wonder why but I didn’t have the heart to tell her what I had just began to discover.
From That point on, I began to conduct my own research and gain further insight to what GOD and Man were, which I believe is one in the same. You as an individual are the master of your fate and captain of your soul. You make your heaven by finding peace within self here and now. You create hell by having your mind remain in shackles and not truly understanding the power it posseses, therefore running on the treadmill of life as supposed to evolving and growing.
I feel as though I can do this all w/out being hypocritical to someone who is highly religious (majority of women in my family, female friends, girlfriend, etc.) because as you said, to judge others is totally wrong, and I know this by the feeling I get after doing it. I’m a strong believer in positive and negative vibrations and if you relay off negative thoughts and vibes you’re just going to receive them back.
Now lastly, to answer the question posed to me by my neo, I think that i’ve done more good than bad thus far in my life. On my continued quest to find inner peace and continuosly service (pause) those around me who need it and I can provide for w/in my means, I feel as though I will one day find ‘Heaven on Earth’, even if its my last day.
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Smiley Face Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 8:29 am
Now dat right dere…is exactly how I feel!
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CHeeKZ is licking his chomps Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:01 am
God Body Ninja… much respect. Powerful teachings.
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Incredible post, Seattle!
I guess that’s my main gripe with Bible thumpers who spew vitriol at gay people and cite their book as a defense. It’s the hypocrisy…the picking and choosing. Their response to that is that not every single thing in the Bible can apply today because it’s outdated, well, who chooses what’s outdated or not? Wouldn’t the blasphemy towards gay people be considered outdated today just as legalized slavery is?
And, I agree with Seattle in that I have a few choice words on those who trivialize the Black struggle and compare it to the gay struggle. Because keep in mind, the Black gay man or woman is struggling between two different oppressions…and one of those oppressions (their color) is a struggle within the gay community itself.
But putting that aside for a moment, since it’s a separate sub-topic that requires its own discussion, I’ll just say this. I feel some kinda way about denying anyone their civil rights and I am in full support of gay marriage. I don’t buy the whole “sanctity of marriage” defense one bit because that has already been tainted by infidelity in and of itself, let alone the other negative factors in marriage. And besides, we change and alter the definitions of words all the time to match the current times, what’s so precious about the word “marriage”? Not much. Our divorce rates can vouch for that.
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CHeeKZ is licking his chomps Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:30 am
I co-sign 2/3 paragraphs, my e-snuggle-bunny. But I would like to say something about the middle one.
Why are we as a minority group so focused on the origin of the discrimination? Or the agenda? Or the application? We as a people should ride for the other minorites b/c it is a discrimination.
My boo, my boy, and my homey (Cheekie, Seattle, Rox) all pointed to the fact that the plights are SOO different. But legally they are soo the same. The laws against sodomy go back further than Jim Crow laws. Read the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment… How can you say they are they aren’t same? We are both looking for equal protection under the law. Why we are looking for equal protection or how bad we need that protection is grandstanding and extra. The core value is why I support Gay Rights advocates using civil rights cases as a precedent.
As long as a group of people are being denied the ablity to do something because they differ from other people… its the same issue, only a question of scope. And all those oppressed have a freind in CHeeKZ, atheist for hire. **A little off topic, but I never got to it two days ago.**
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Tatica Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:46 am
Good points. That need to throw in the distinction has always baffled me. I mean do people think that it weakens their argument to be compared to another human rights struggle? The more we separate the weaker we are.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:25 am
E-boo, I have crawled through the underground railroad and somehow made it to ThreeWays on my plantation’s computer after being blocked for God knows how long. Let rejoicing commence!
Anyhow. This.
“Why are we as a minority group so focused on the origin of the discrimination? Or the agenda? Or the application? We as a people should ride for the other minorites b/c it is a discrimination. ”
See, actually, your overall point is what I agree with. We actually should band together due to the simple fact that it is discrimination, which is wrong, no matter the victim.
My point in differentiating the two is that a lot of gay rights supporters were saying that “if Blacks came this far, why can’t we?”. Yes, they are both forms of discrimination, but all forms of discrimination can’t be solved with one big wave of the hand. Not all discrimination is based on the same exact thing. It may be based on similar things (like hatred), but each form of discrimination must be handled in a different way. We can’t just wave a magic wand over racial issues and then gay issues will be solved by default. Or vice versa.
They are two distinct struggles and should be treated as such as they will each take different methods in order to resolve them.
This ain’t a “my struggle is worse than yours now because you have rights I don’t” contest and that’s what a lot of the gay rights activists were coming across as saying out of anger. And I’m not making this a contest, either. I’m just saying it’s different. And there’s nothing wrong with saying the two struggles are different, because they are. That doesn’t somehow eliminate the possibility that they will be solved, it just means that different steps will have to be taken for each.
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Mc Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I completely agree that everyone should acknowledge the two are different… The fact that a gay white or white woman can choose whether or not to be outwardly gay and black people cannot choose whether or not they want to be black makes the issues different.
Similarly to almost everyone else I believe that gay people should have the right to get married for the myriad of reasons already well articulated.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:48 pm
@ MC,
Exactly. That is definitely one major aspect that makes them each different. Again, does that make one more important than the other? Nope. But, to use one in order to make a defense of another is unnecessary and not at all progressive. And it’s usually less about “let’s come together in our discrimination” and more about “your struggle is over and mine has taken over” and it really irks me.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:15 pm
No one can deny that the history of black people and the history of gay people is different. That is pretty obvious.
But the laws are similar. And the rationale behind the oppression on both is ignorant.
Apples to Oranges..maybe? But did you ever realize apples and oranges are still fruit. And you can learn something about growing oranges from the skills you gained growing apples. Its easy to say see the differences, use your wits and you can find the similarities.
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and1grad Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
@Cheekie
What you said has a lot to do with why Black people didnt vote with gay rights in CA. It wasnt just about religion or cons/lib political leanings. I think people, in general, would have been much more willing to listen if discussions were had rather than lectures.
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Great post dude.
For me, my own ideas of what is right and wrong tie in for the most part with my religion. But I know that there are things that the Good Book notes as dead wrong…and I still proceed, not because I think what I am doing is right per se, but because I want to do it. Do I feel hypocritical about it? Sometimes yes. But I am not perfect, and I’m still on my journey.
I think hypocrisy would really come into play if I were to call out others for doing “wrong” or going against the Word, whilst I proceeded to do the same thing. I don’t get down like that. Some people do, and sadly that drives a lot of people away from the church. In the end, I think we all have to remember people are people. Imperfect beings. No matter what faith they practice and book they gleam spiritual guidance from. So dammit, don’t judge me!
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For me it’s pretty simple…
God gives me choices. He allows us all to choose if we want to follow what he says or not.
So who am I to take someone’s choice to do what they want away just because it conflicts with what I believe?
If more Christians spent their time living the life they seem to want everyone else to live instead of trying to legislate it out of people, use fear to get it out of people, and downright belittle people to get it out of them, we might be a better place for it.
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I’m a Bible-hugger, Seattle and I agree with most of what you said.
The only thing I have a problem with is when non-Christians or “spiritual – not religious” Christians say things like “I can’t get down with religion because people are too judgmental,” or because “Too many terrible things are carried out in the name of religion.”
It just seems unfair to “judge” something that is supposed to be personal and spiritual on the actions of the people who follow it. Yes, some Christians are judgmental and yes, a lot of effed up stuff is carried out in the name of religion. But that doesn’t take away from what God has done, or who He is.
There’s a lot of really messed up things associated with a lot of concepts and beliefs that we hold dear, but no one seems to cast them aside the way they do religion. Like *love* for instance. So many crazy and unnecessary things are carried out in the name of love (like murder-suicides) and people judge and are judged for who and how and what they love all the time. So do we just cast love aside and say “that’s not for me” just because other people are tarnishing love’s reputation? I don’t think so.
Because the stuff that love provides for us is worth the struggle that it takes to believe in it. It’s worth the judgment and criticism that your friends burden you with for being in love. It’s worth the pain that you feel when love doesn’t seem to be going your way. It’s worth everything — even life or death — because it’s just that awesome.
Well, for me, God is Love. And religion, though flawed, is the means and the path by which I find Love.
And as far as the Good Book… well you answered how to approach the “discrepancies” that are found therein. The first thing is to remember that the Bible and religion were both man-made, and therefore flawed, but that doesn’t make them any less worthy. The second thing to keep in mind is that none of us is perfect, but that doesn’t make us any less worthy either. And lastly, remember that with Jesus Christ came the new covenant, and everything changed. So in times of confusion, the best thing to do is to follow Christ… and like you said, He surrounded himself with lepers and whores and tax collectors and sinners, all without judgment, so we should be making an attempt to do the same.
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:50 am
Wow. I actually expected a totally different response. You guys surprise me every day. In a good way. Most of the time at least.
You’re right and I’ve come to acknowledge that you can’t disregard all of religion just because of the actions of its followers.
I’m trying to get back into it Joey… I’m trying…
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Joey Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:54 am
Actually Seattle… I was going to say that I’ve noticed a change in your approach/rhetoric since the last time religion was discussed… You do seem to be opening up a little more to it anyway.
God sees your attempts, even if you’re not there yet… None of us are there anyway. Trust me.
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CHeeKZ hates the fact that you worship anything other than him Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Seattle… Why are you ruining your life going back to the world of the brainwashed? You are doing fine as a heathen? You became disgusted with what those in power via religion. So you quit, but you didn’t become a bad person.
If we aren’t discounted religion for the misteps of its followers can we discount it for its historical and/or scientific inaccuracies, controlling demeanor, inability to correct a long standing society, creation of unchecked power structure or its premise of finality?
sorry i could only hold it in for so long…
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Joey Reply:
July 24th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
My love… You can discount love for all those things as well… My premise remains the same. If we base it on things that are tangible or measurable, then it becomes something of this world. Religion – though of this world – represents something that cannot be seen or felt or measured. Similar to love, we can think of a million reasons not to believe in it, or to denounce it forever. You gotta do what’s right for you. No one is telling you how or what to believe… We are all just expressing what we hold true and why…
Careful that you’re not attempting to convince others to follow you (and therefore engaging in the same hypocrisy of which you accuse Christians)…
I know this is late, but… yeah.
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“I’m for Gay Rights. I don’t believe any human being should have basic civil rights taken away from them on the basis of their race, color, creed or sexual orientation.”
For the most part I agree with the post. However we differ: I surely believe in Gays having bank accounts all other financial freedoms except for those benefits enjoyed by married men and women. If you are talking martial rights well then I say NO. While society will probably eventually widely accept Gay marriage this it is still WRONG. While I agree with humane treatment I think allowing gay marriages is totally wrong because morally, spiritually and definitely physically it’s wrong. For example if we put 100 women on an island and 100 men on another Island by themselves and leave them alone for the next 1000 years life would cease to exist because they cannot procreate. Anyway we look at the facts about gay men and women we always end up with a negative.
“I highly doubt that Jesus would befriend and take in a well-known whore, be cool with the lepers, talk to the sleaziest of merchants, but tell the masses to light the gay dude on fire as soon as they were done eating their bread and fish.”
The commonality here is that Jesus or God loves all humans as we are supposedly his children. This still however does not make this right, according to God’s rules they would still be considered sinners.
Ok by reading what I have wrote so far you have probably formed an opinion that I’m a right wing Christian. However I’m not. I haven’t been to church in years and I don’t agree with a lot of what is taught in churches no matter what denomination you are practicing. In conclusion I believe humans should be treated as such and people have the right to do whatever they want to do with their lives. Whether a man or women is gay they should eat drink and be merry., however being allowed to enjoy benefit from marriages should be for reserved for the what marriage was originally created for.
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Still Water Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:04 am
What marriage was created for?
What… does that mean?
In my mind, marriage is a contract between two people to spend the rest of their lives together. They agree to share all that they have with one another whether they decide to procreate or not.
“For example if we put 100 women on an island and 100 men on another Island by themselves and leave them alone for the next 1000 years life would cease to exist because they cannot procreate. Anyway we look at the facts about gay men and women we always end up with a negative.”
God created all types of people with different physicalities, lifestyles, emotions, and personalities. If we put 100 Men and Women on an island but they were all sterile, the population would cease to exist as well. I say this to highlight that WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT and therefore have no business saying what is right or wrong.
“The commonality here is that Jesus or God loves all humans as we are supposedly his children. This still however does not make this right, according to God’s rules they would still be considered sinners.”
God also tells us that we need to love our enemies as we love our friends. So even if you do not “agree” with someone else’s lifestyle, you should embrace them as a human being. Treat them as you would treat someone you hold dear. You would not deny your mother/sister/brother/lover happiness. Why should you deny someone else?
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MrknowitALL Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
STILL WATER- you have made 3 valid points. However the goal here is not to rationalize whether or not anyone has to the right to decide what’s wrong or right but to simply states the facts. I have openly gay family members that I would like to see happy with whatever choices they make. I never said I don’t want Gays not to be treated as a human being, because I do. While sterile folks cannot procreate simply because they are lacking the necessary tools to procreate, it is not the same as being able to naturally procreate. Because if these folks were not sterile a man and women would be able to procreate. However nowhere in history or nature or even science can anyone duplicate procreation between the same sexes. Within science you can change your sex add and take off parts you don’t want but you cannot procreate.
The plain and simply fact without rationalization is that fact the same sexes cannot procreate so therefore it is wrong. Excuse the following expression. “If you take a piece of shit and dress it up and make it look nice the end result is still a piece of shit.”
I don’t hate gay people they are human being just like everyone else. If like you said “marriage is a contract between two people to spend the rest of their lives together“. Well then sit down pencil up a contract together and make any agreements you like, but I believe you should not be entitled to the tax benefits and any other benefits from marriage because marriage was meant for Men and women not for the same sexes. If marriage was a meant for same sexes relationships then we would not be having this debate.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“Because if these folks were not sterile a man and women would be able to procreate. ”
If… the sterile couple gets a pass by of a hypotheical situation. Why can’t the gay couple get the same pass? If that man was a women than they could procreate. And nothing personal we have never talked to the orginal inventors of marriage so we have no idea if procreation was the original attempt OR social pairing b/c we have found several cases of homosexuality in nature (Sea Monkeys, Penguins and Bottle nose dolphins)
Also certain fungi can reproduce with the same sex:
Cryptococcus neoformans. Its as natural as bacteria. lol
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CHeeKZ is shocked people still think like this Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 10:47 am
Ummmm homey?
If we only allow the legal rights of marriage to only those who can procreate…. why do we allow the legal rights of procreation to those who don’t get married?
In today’s society there is such a limited connection between the two. Many heterosexual couples get married and chose not to have a kid. Or they adopt. Or they get a cat. Marriage’s orginal intention has come along way, we aren’t clubing women with tree branches and carrying them back to our caves. According to your thinking.. masturbation and oral sex should be banned too, b/c that isn’t what my hard hannity was created for.
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MrknowitALL Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:16 pm
The legal right of procreation for those who get married and decide not to procreate is acceptable because that is natural part of our genetic make up. This cannot be changed unless the couple involved is sterile. Procreation or the concept of procreation is so prevalent in our daily lives because- for instance from a mechanical standpoint. You never have 2 male connectors fitting together or 2 female connectors fitting together. There is female and male because it works better this way and for easily identifying different parts. From and agriculture standpoint- You never have plants of the same sexes procreating. You can take different elements from one plant and merge it with another plant but still no procreation. Nature’s standpoint- You never have animals of the same sex procreating and the list goes on.
“CHeeKZ is shocked people still think like this”
This statement goes to show you that gay marriages will one day be accepted widely not because it is right but simply because people rationalization whether or not it is our place to judge or love different people.
If marriage was a meant for same sexes relationships then we would not be having this debate.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
We are having this debate b/c you are obsessed with marriage being related to populating the earth. And you think that our laws on taxes and benefits should be based on identifiable parts that clearly fit together.
The reason I think gay marriage will be acceptable is that fact that we have grown since its inception to include other social relevance to marriage.
To sum it up… we don’t care about original intent. I’m not going to base my laws on some concept invented by cavemen. I’ll rather adjust those concepts to fit the needs of the people of today.
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Katchin05 Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:49 pm
For the record, the agriculture/nature point is moot. Some plants self pollinate or reprodce asexualy. Also, same-sex parings of mammals (without phyiscal reproduction) are not all that uncommon in nature.
Just saying… carry on.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Shiiiii… I don’t think all ppl, married or not, should be “allowed” to procreate… can the government mandate a parental screening examination???
I’m kidding… mostly :-/
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Cheekie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:24 pm
LOL…the above truth.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:20 pm
“Whether a man or women is gay they should eat drink and be merry., however being allowed to enjoy benefit from marriages should be for reserved for the what marriage was originally created for.”
But, as I stated in my original comment, we’ve already pissed on what marriage was allegedly created for as heterosexuals. The “for better or worse ’til death do us part” spiel is just as sanctified in church as the actual definition. We’re not holding to that are we? Should we condemn everyone who tries to marry given our history as a whole? Marriage today is not what it was initially created for because we’re not perfect. We’ve already destroyed the sanctity of marriage in its purest form. But we still get married, don’t we?
I’ll never understand how someone can cheat on their spouse — which is something within their control — and get a divorce without this huge stigma attached to it (there may be a bit of one, but it’s not as huge as two men or two women getting married by a long shot) and can then REMARRY, yet two people in love with a person that happens to share their sex/gender — which is something beyond their control — can’t get married the first time.
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BlueFlame Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Co-sign Cheekie…co-sign
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MrknowitALL Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:27 pm
So basically the institute of marriage is screwed up so why not screw it up even more with something that is inherently wrong. Yes marriage as a whole is screwed up in some situations and people cheat lie and steal which is all wrong but don’t we condemn people for doing wrong things? Yeah we do. So why then should we let same sex marriages happen if we know it’s inherently wrong. That is like saying I know it is wrong to kill a person but I will do it anyway. Either way you look at the situation it is still wrong, which is why murders gets punish for killing someone.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:59 pm
“So basically the institute of marriage is screwed up so why not screw it up even more with something that is inherently wrong.”
But there is no “screwing it up even more”. Marriage is either santified or it’s not. It’s either sacred or it’s not. We’ve already proved that it’s not by our divorce rates. My point is that gay marriage isn’t distroying the sanctity of marriage because that presupposes that it was sacred in its purest form prior to the call for gay marriage rights, and it wasn’t. Not anymore, anyway. Thus gay marriage can’t ruin the sanctity of marriage.
But then again, I don’t agree gay marriage is wrong. Gay marriage in ITS purest form is about love. How can love be wrong?
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Joey Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
And furthermore, Cheekie, if we go by the Bible, than to divorce your wife for any reason other than infidelity, or to marry a divorced woman is also considered adultery, which is a sin… So if we’re gonna keep gay people from getting married, we should make those 2 things illegal, too.
Bottom line is, marriage is something that began in religion and was taken over by the government (because they saw the profit in it). Now they want to impose their own restrictions, when in reality, if a church/mosque/temple/your mom agrees to marry 2 people, it should be recognized by the law because God says what we hold true on earth, He will also hold true in heaven – well – within reason anyway.
Times are changing, and religion is built to be maleable (though God is unchanging). It’s time we rethink our traditions and practices so they resemble the world in which we live.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“Times are changing, and religion is built to be maleable (though God is unchanging). It’s time we rethink our traditions and practices so they resemble the world in which we live.”
Word.
Besides, it shouldn’t be so hard. We’ve already done it by abolishing slavery and working on the Sabbath just to name a couple.
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and1grad Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:39 pm
@MrKnowItAll
I might not completely agree with what you say but you definitely make some good points. Actually, both of you do. Anyway, why do you object to granting gay people the civil rights/liberties granted to those that are married? Its far more than simply tax benefits. Most, if not all, of those rights are granted b/c you’ve chosen a person to have a certain amount of significance in your life. That isnt based on your ability to procreate (unless you’re part of a royal family or something).
Just for argument’s sake, you could say that the fact that they cant procreate is penalty enough. Why add more?
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Cheekie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:04 pm
“Just for argument’s sake, you could say that the fact that they cant procreate is penalty enough. Why add more?”
So, so, true.
And in regards to procreation, well, how are gay men or gay women not being able to procreate any different than a hetero couple not being able to procreate? Both are by means beyond their control. Hetero couples that aren’t able to procreate for whatever reason choose adoption or surrogate or otherwise go childless. Whatever their choice is up to them and I don’t see them as any less married than a married couple with birth children.
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I believe that GAY FOLK GETTING MARRIED IS WRONG. However, so is all the other eff’d up sh!t we do. (Premarital sex, lying, cheating). Since we are not in a position to rank sins, I think who ever votes to ban gay marriage should also vote to ban premarital sex and anything else that is consider a sin.
Furthermore, my moral compass is not and should not be the compass of society as a whole. I dont agree with lying and stealing SO I DONT LIE OR STEAL. You can lie or steal all you want as long as you dont do it to me. Since I dont believe gay marriage is right, you wont see me get GAY MARRIED. Any other Tom, Dick & Jane can get married to whomever they please
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:38 pm
“Since I dont believe gay marriage is right, you wont see me get GAY MARRIED. Any other Tom, Dick & Jane can get married to whomever they please”
Though, I don’t agree with you that gay marriage is wrong, I do agree with this overall sentiment. Truthfully, I respect folks’ opinions who blasphemize gay marriage even though I don’t agree. Ya know, respecting folks opinions even though they differ from mine, in general.
So,
I respect these folks even more when they let folks live their lives. To those who picket gay marriages and/or unions and live your life based on how someone else is living theirs: How the eff is two men kissing in the name of marriage disrupting your life?! Like, just because they’re going to see Elton John on their honeymoon, you’re not gonna be able to get up in the morning and go to work?
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I’m a practicing Christian, and it is my interpretation that you hate the sin and love the person.
I don’t believe gays should be persecuted and forbidden to enjoy the things we enjoy, but I don’t feel strong enough about it to get on a pedastal for it.
My church is open to gays… they are in the choir, they all up and through the service.. we even have a gay ministry for them. Not all churches are fire and brimstone.
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I gotta agree with this post 100%. One thing I’ve thought about though is that in the far far future when I have kids, will I want to raise them in a church? I want them to have the social structure, but as your post mentions, there’s so many flaws and so much hypocrisy depending on where you go. It’s a tough question.
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I was born and raised in the church, and I’m still trying to get right before I get left. I use the scripture as a life guide. If nothing else, the Bible is the moral code that helps me figure out what is right or wrong. It also helps strengthen my relationship with God. Do I always follow it and do what I’m supposed to? No! But I’m definitely trying to do better.
As a Christian I am far from perfect. Most Christian struggle with their walk on a daily. That has a lot to do with your relationship with God. I think as you grow closer to him there are some things you just will not even want to do anymore, thus eliminating the hypocrisy. The old folks used to say “God knows my heart.” So he knows the areas I really am improving (He also knows when I’m just faking the funk).
I’m a big church critic from the pulpit to the door, and I definitely notice all the hypocrites in church. Some so-called “church folks” are going to bust Hell wide open because that’s where they’re headed in a hand basket with a VIP pass and gasoline drawers. People pick and choose what to adhere to from the Bible like it’s a buffet line (I’m guilty of this too). Thank God for grace and mercy.
As far as homosexuals go, it’s like the commentator above said, you love the sinner, hate the sin. Jesus is love, so I’m pretty sure if he was around today he’d take a stand for homosexuals to have equal rights. After all he stood up for the woman that was an adulterer and so many other unsavory characters.
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This is a question I asked in another blog discussion about this subject: If this is a moral/religious issue (which I believe it is) why is my governemnt involved in it? Why are we voting on a religious matter like we were voting on teachers’ salaries?
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 pm
I ask the same question about healthcare. Ppl like to consider health care a basic human right b/c morally & ethically speaking, ppl shouldn’t be denied health, & subsequently care. So why is the government involved in it? It’s definitely not trying to pay for the educations that breed the docs it’s trying to regulate so tightly.
While it’s horrible at it, the government’s job is to moderate. Otherwise, we’d all be doing whatever the hell we’d want.
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Mc Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I think health care is a little different.. since it is an industry where some people are making hella money and others are not. (insurance companies vs. general practitioners) Whereas giving someone the right to get married is a whole different issue.
But as you said the government’s job is to moderate… for health care that’s making it affordable and accessible. (although they do need to work on making medical education more affordable) What is there to moderate in the gay marriage issue people who support or denounce it are either going to be happy or not.
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Tatica Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I don’t really see the two questiosn as related, I mean do you say sick people with no money should not get healthcare in same way non-heterosexual people should not get married? I can’t draw that bridge at all…
And if you’re to ask that question about healthcare, will you also ask it about grade level education? Where does it end?
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:11 pm
yeeeeeah, the comment wasn’t intended to be a stark comparison b/w the two at all. rather, what I was suggesting is that the government’s job is to moderate what it’s people attempt to discern for themselves, i.e. who can marry who, or who has access to healthcare/at what cost… it clearly hasn’t done a very fabulous job with either. I was def not comparing gay marriage to accessing affordable health care.
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Cheekie is Flabbergasted Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Great question. One I’ve asked myself so many times. Church and state is as separate as white on rice. Who they foolin’, I don’t know…
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Being raised by a Sufi Muslim father, a Southern Baptist mother, a Jewish “play-grandma”, and with my two best childhood friends being Buddhist and Catholic, I tend to throw the literal readings of sacred texts out of the window when making a lot of judgements.
I would’ve gone crazy if I didn’t.
I tend to take a basic trends from all of them (be an honorable person, have respect for other lives, be honest & true to your word, apologize when you fall short, know you are imperfect but strive for better, be humble) and trust the conscience I was blessed with for the rest. I know that all of the holy texts, while they may have been divinely inspired, were written by man, and we -quite clearly- are fallible.
I think a lot of politics and cultural ideals/norms went into the writing and interpretations of many of our sacred texts. Ideas that simply don’t mesh with modern reality, and should be discarded, as many of them have been (like men cutting their sideburns or women being sent away when menstruating). I think banning gay marriage is one of those old ideas that people still cling to. Marriage (if we set aside all of the other lovely ideas of devotion & commitment for a second) was once to ensure the species continued. That’s not really a problem for us now. I hear people say “Marriage is about starting a family/ having children.” So gay people can’t be a family? Should couple who can’t have/don’t want children not be allowed to marry?
People who aren’t heterosexual are still people. I don’t see why anyone else should be regulating such a personal issue.
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Tatica Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:06 am
“I hear people say “Marriage is about starting a family/ having children.” So gay people can’t be a family? Should couple who can’t have/don’t want children not be allowed to marry?
People who aren’t heterosexual are still people. I don’t see why anyone else should be regulating such a personal issue.”
Good point. I don’t plan on having children, should I cease and desist the husband search?
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:10 am
“Good point. I don’t plan on having children, should I cease and desist the husband search?”
You’re going down a road that’s a great one with that question, but I’ma try to stay on task with the current topic.lol. But no, you should not cease.
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Tatica Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
Whew, glad I can proceed ?
You’re good for trying to stay on topic, but it does serve to illustrate that this issue is far from self-contained and raises a lot more questions if you’re approaching it logically.
I’m for gay marriage and I’m really glad that people are having this discussion where all our voices and opinions are being heard.
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I’m not against Gay marriage, but I’m not rallying behind it either – I’ve heard both sides of the argument & think they are both valid.
When it comes to my personal mantra, I say to each their own under the premise that what we do breeds love, respect, good health & safety – if Gay marriage aligns w/ that, all I’m saying is that I won’t judge it. God didn’t put me on this earth to judge, so I don’t. From my upbringing through episcopalian & catholic schools, I was taught to love my neighbor as I do myself (which inclines me to ask, how many people truly love themselves these days?… & u expect them to love their neighbors??? pshhhhhh).
But I’m really posting to challenge the majority of commenters here 2day:
I, too, believe all human beings worthy of all basic human rights… but does anyone care to define what those are? Is marriage one of them? Healthcare? Clothes? Food? Being able to follow whatever religion they choose? What are they!? What are we owed, what should be free of cost, what should be equally accessible? Is there an ancient graphite crucible somewhere with a list etched in it? Are “basic human rights” merely the set of privileges bestowed upon us by the State under which we are governed?
I don’t go to church, & while I do consider myself Christian, at the end of the day, I nurture the spirituality & connectedness I have w/ God through the daily challenges & experiences I face in trying to be the best & most loving person I can be. I’d like nothing more than for us all to live in harmonious bliss (yet I know & God knows I fail time & time again, & I’d be willing to bet all of us up in this blog have danced w/ our own personal hypocrisies). But ppl, while many of u have described being similar, there are many others who aren’t, there are many others who can’t operate autonomously outside their faiths, & they shouldn’t be judged either. To many ppl, their religion is gospel, it’s word is bond. Heck yeah their are outliers, muckin it up for everyone, but I think it unfair for ppl to generalize & judge the devout for believing or not in one thing or another; not all Catholics have premarital sex, & not all Jews “bash in the heads of their enemies children.”* On the flip side, some ppl DON’T think premarital sex is a sin, but if those same ppl don’t support Gay marriage, who’s right is it to judge them for it?
& lastly, I don’t think it fair that black ppl SHOULD or HAVE to support Gay marriage b/c we know what it’s like to be denied our basic human rights. 1) that’s like saying I should give that bum on the corner my hard earned $$$ because I, too, know what it’s like to be broke, & 2) that’s still a faulty comparison. But my main point is that even black ppl have the right to decide for themselves whether Gay marriage is right or wrong, & who is anybody to deny them of THAT basic human right? I wonder how many Gay ppl supported proposition 209…
(Preface: this is not a comparison)
The only reason slavery ended in this country is b/c people rallied behind the cause – thank God. If Gay ppl want marriage, they will have to continue to fight for it. If ppl want to support, support! But some ppl don’t, & as long as their opinion isn’t conferring irrevocable pain, hate, ill-health or danger upon Gay ppl, I say they have a right to that opinion.
*Referenced from a comment in the Three Ways’ post “Yo Black, What Can Brown Do for You?”
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
A basic human right to me is one that does not need to be attained with any monetary effort. Back in the day, folks would fall in love and get married. You didn’t need money for that. Now we have to get a license, a church, a place for the after party, buy a ring, pay for the honeymoon, etc. It’s all frivolous things that cover up the base nature of the act.
Another way to determine what is a basic human rights is to look at activities in their most base nature. While shared bank accounts and last rites may seems like things only those in “higher” societies have to deal with, folks in rural areas do as well. Only it’s not handled through a bank or through a lawyer, it’s discussed within the home.
Long winded way of saying that “basic human rights” are things that are, in fact, base at their core.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
I see what u mean & pretty much agree, but we all have an opinion… here’s what the UN says about it http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/
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Mc Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I think article 16 supports gay marriage… it says any of age Men or Women.. not a man and a woman.. idk
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I’m not using the UN’s document in support of Gay marriage or not. I simply brought up the point b/c I think very few ppl know what basic human rights are, myself included.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:20 pm
But yeah, u got that
Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:44 pm
& what about food, shelter, education??? these are just as basic as falling in love & uniting for life or even moreso… the UN considers them basic human rights, but not only are they denied ppl all the time, they all have a cost… I believe in the ideal of basic human rights, but in reality, they’re hella mucky & poorly defined.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
aren’t you taking the UN’s definition out of context? That list was made up as the basic things that a government should NOT deny to its people. Not a list of rights a government may only allow its people.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I’m not taking them out of context. Like I said, “I’m not using the UN’s document in support of Gay marriage or not. I simply brought up the point b/c I think very few ppl know what basic human rights are, myself included.”
Not denying/allowing is pretty much the same thing, is it not? Not denying is essentially allowing. I think u rather like to disagreeing w/ me.
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CHeeKZ says "that is what happens when you are spitting what is inside you" Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Foot notes Rox? Footnotes?!
I’m not saying all Jews want to bash in their enemies heads…but that book they believe in tells them to (I still need to find that verse, I know one of you bible huggers knows it and just doesn’t want to give it to me
Rox my dear…you get an NO-Sign (the opposite of a co-sign).
“I, too, believe all human beings worthy of all basic human rights… but does anyone care to define what those are?”
John Locke goes with life, liberty and property. When we started this country we went with Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That was the goal of this experiment called America. The reason why I look down on those who don’t support gay marriage is b/c you are encouraging the blockage of the third. And I don’t see how you can live with yourself knowing that fact.
On top of all that… there is still liberty (the name of my first dog). When we denied people liberty in the past, the wise stood up for the cause stood in front of the courts and fixed it the ***best they possibly could***. Do you really want to be neutral on this or any topic involving the denial of liberty?
“that’s like saying I should give that bum on the corner my hard earned $$$ because I, too, know what it’s like to be broke”
Nah, its more like being imprisoned for a crime you didn’t commit and being freed via New evidence for DNA testing and not supporting legislation that would apply DNA testing to all cases. You would be a dirtbag, who only cares about himself.
“black ppl have the right to decide for themselves whether Gay marriage is right or wrong, & who is anybody to deny them of THAT basic human right”
We are not trying to deny you that right. But Peyso put it better than any man on the face of this earth. He is against gay marriage, so he doesn’t marry gays. What you think is right and wrong can differ from what policy and legal actions you support. Many people are against interracial marriage, but they don’t pass a law against it. You shouldn’t support oppression even if what you are oppressing is ‘moral’.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
LMAO, yeah footnotes. I thought that’d get ur attn.
But John Locke? For real? A white man??? The constitution also said that all ppl were created equal – aaaaaand it meant white ppl. For all we know, Mr. Locke meant straight white men lol. So let’s stay in the now, shall we, where I agree with u that all ppl should have equal access to what makes life truly rich. But wasn’t this post about ppls beliefs? Opinions? I just wanted to defend ppl who really do have moral qualms with the issue of Gay marriage.
& dayum CheeKZiepoo… ur ruthless when it comes to Rox. A NO-SIGN? U r entitled, but r u really judging me for being neutral? Ppl don’t have to be rah rah in support of Gay marriage, & their lack of enthusiasm over the issue isn’t blocking anybody’s pursuit of happiness. I apologize for taking ur response personally if it wasn’t intended to be directed at me per se, but I clearly stated in my post that “I say to each their own under the premise that what we do breeds LOVE, RESPECT, GOOD HEALTH, & SAFETY – if Gay marriage aligns w/ that, all I’m saying is that I won’t judge it.” I don’t feel as though I have all the answers; I don’t know whether Gay marriage is ok in the eyes of God… Ppl have a right to be conflicted over the issue. What I do know is that I’m not at liberty to judge, which may be playing it safe, but I don’t see how u don’t see that as fair.
Other than that, I don’t see where we disagree. Peyso’s comment was exactly what inspired me to write mine, which was almost 100% about the hypocrisy of pointing out the splinter in somebody’s eye while u still have a log in ur own, & asserting that ppl should live by their own standards & morals without projecting them onto the lives of others. & to quote myself AGAIN, “as long as [ppls] opinion isn’t conferring irrevocable pain, hate, ill-health or danger upon…ppl, I say they have a right to that opinion.” I didn’t say action, I said opinion. Ur DNA analogy falls under the realm of an “action” that would confer undeniable ill-will against another & I’m witchU, I ain’t with it.
Personally, I wouldn’t feel right voting against a law legalizing Gay marriage, but I would much rather vote for a law that allowed ppl to marry whomever they wanted, without exclusion. So my hands are up in the air. Sue me for it, but I rather be put in a position to not judge, especially when I don’t really know what is right in the eyes from up above.
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CHeeKZ is blushing Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:07 pm
I only disagree b/c I want to beat… raw. preferably in public.
like a school boy picking on the girl he crushes, Rox, I chase down your comments… and cop an intellectual feel.
**side stings**
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CHeeKZ is blushing Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:14 pm
honestly.. I was just grandstanding.
Drawing a line in the sand and making you chose. You pro “who ever you want” law sounds better than a “pro gay” law
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and1grad Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Rather than defining a human/civil right, why not just center the argument around equality?
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:57 pm
@and1grad: good point. perhaps that would bring it closer to home for some folks. minorities included.
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Cheekie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I’m not trying to be difficult (yes, I am), but isn’t equality the goal of civil rights?
But, maybe the change of term would bring it closer to home, who knows. Is the term “civil rights” what folks are having a problem with?
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There is a book called, “The Shack” by William P. Young…completely changed the way I thought about religion and my own personal relationship with God…It’s definitely a good read and i highly recommend it! It doesn’t really pick up until about page 80…but once you start reading it you can’t stop. Here’s a link if anyone is interested in seeing what it’s about….
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/books/24shack.html
But in going along with the topic discussion, i do support gay marriage. Like pretty much a majority of people have said, I don’t believe that it is my place to deny someone a basic human right. And I believe with Streetz comment ” I think it’s very important to have a relationship with God beyond the constructs of the church. My siblings all have a different relationship with my mom than I do, so why shouldn’t we all have a different UNIQUE relationship with “Whatever gods may be”?” 100%
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There is separation b/w church and state here in this country. So when it comes to legal matters, let’s toss the good book to the side real quick.
So why are people against gays getting married? is it because you don’t want them taking advantage of tax breaks?
what does it matter to you whether they are official married or not? they still gonna be living together, fudge packin’, and munchin’ their nights away anyway.
i mean forreal.. who REALLY cares? and if you do…. WHY? You can believe it’s wrong, but it aint your life.
Now with all that said… i personally don’t think it needs to be on the shoulders of black people to fight for gay rights. I do think some level of sympathy for their plight is reasonable… but at the end of the day, the two plights really ARE going for two different things. yeah, there have been hate crimes and alot of bullshit thrown towards gays but they aren’t fighting the systematic and institutional oppression like blacks are.
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Yeah, basically.
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now while i don’t agree with homosexuality (has nothing to do with religion), i still think that they should have equal rights. i also don’t like to see people mistreated or treated unequally based on their beliefs.
i don’t like when people use the bible to try to argue that homosexuality is wrong. the bible can be interpreted in so many ways. most things that we do in this world could probably be interpreted as sinful somewhere in the bible (because we are all sinners right?). who am i (or anyone else for that matter) to judge the next person and how they live their life?
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misguided religion without honest spirituality is whack.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Aye Aye Ok! Ok!
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Rox Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 3:01 pm
::snap snap::
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I used to believe that just being a “good person” was good enough to gain entry to heaven as well, until one day it dawned on me…what does it mean to be a “good” person? What really makes me any different from someone who commits atrocious crimes? Sure, its easy for me, or any of us to preach about being “good people” when we’re sitting in a cushy home, typing away at our computers, enjoying Starbucks, but other people in other parts of the world are forced to contend with harsh realities. The more I realize this, the more I’ve come to dislike the phrase “I’m a good person”- all this implies is that you are somehow an elevated form of human being separate from everyone else. I would really prefer people to just say “I’m acceptable according to societal standards” because in the end, that’s what they really mean anyway.
As far as the argument about Christians picking and choosing what parts of the bible they adhere to, I agree, but i don’t think Christians are the only ones capable of being hypocrites. Hypocrisy is a HUMAN trait. There are many people who believe that premarital sex is okay b/c after all, its a natural behavior that all animals and creatures engage in. But there are a lot of other naturally occurring behaviors that happen throughout the animal kingdom as well, like murder (just watch the discovery channel for a half hour) People are willing to believe that just because something is a natural instinct, it is automatically acceptable behavior, while many of us know this is not true in all cases. People don’t mind criticizing others hypocrisy, but don’t stop to see that they are not fully subscribed to their own gauge or morality either. If its okay to believe that certain practices are fine b/c they feel natural, yet other practices are condemned while they’re natural as well, then that’s also hypocrisy.
God providing forgiveness is b/c people have a hard time fully committing to any credo. Whether its religion, marriage, career, politics or any other kind of relationship, people are known to not always give 100% in all areas of their life. Granting forgiveness for sins is not about becoming a “good” person. The Bible says that “there is none good but one- God.” i believe that God wants us to simply maintain our faith in him and not be discouraged. Of course there will be those who abuse this freedom, but people are known to abuse all freedoms.
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Cheekie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“As far as the argument about Christians picking and choosing what parts of the bible they adhere to, I agree, but i don’t think Christians are the only ones capable of being hypocrites. Hypocrisy is a HUMAN trait.”
I don’t think anyone is implying that Christians are the only hypocrites or that hypocrisy isn’t human. The point is that if they are gonna judge someone (which the Bible tells them not to) based on something that they believe to be sacred, then they have to carry out EVERYthing not just the ones that fit their agenda. Otherwise, the judgement is null and void, IMO.
We know hypocrisy is human. Know what else is human? Calling out bullsh*t. That’s why we put forth the “picking and choosing” defense.
Furthermore, I think the hypocrisy in us actually supports the idea that we aren’t in a position to judge one another, or more accurately (since we all judge…another human trait), to condemn someone to eternal damnation. Since we’re all human, and all.
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As a progressive christian, I am completely opposed to people using any religious text, especially the bible, to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, ethnicity, religion, and sexual orientation. As a PC, I am pro-choice and pro-gay rights, and will defend that against those who are anti-choice and anti-gay rights on grounds of religion/morality, yet are for the death penalty, picket the funerals of soldiers killed in iraq, and not speak out against racism, sexism, and other isms that continue to plague our society today.
During his NAACP speech, POTUS made a great comment that has been left out of the transcripts of the speech….
“Some of you saw last week, in Ghana, Michelle and I took Malia and Sasha and my mother-in-law to Cape Coast Castle in Ghana. Some of you may have been there. This is where captives were once imprisoned before being auctioned, where across an ocean so much of the African American experience began. We went down into the dungeons, where the captives were held. There was a church above one of the dungeons…which tells you something…about saying one thing and doing another.”
Recently, Jimmy Carter severed ties with the Southern Baptist Convention for similar reasons.
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/jimmy-carter-loses-his-religion
Now, I say this not to put down organized religion. There are black churches all over this country doing great things in the community, showing the love of Christ through their actions. And I applaud those churches, b/c that is what the church is supposed to do. However, organized religion has gotten increasingly political over the years, and pastors, priests, rabbi, and other religious leaders have used the pulpit to spread religious dogma regarding abortion, sexual orientation, women’s rights, etc, that are discriminatory against that particular group. And they are doing it in the name of christ, which is WRONG.
That’s where the hypocrisy comes in…where you have people who feel they are morally superior to others, who judge others, and when they themselves do not live up to any biblical standards. I’m not talking about those people who are trying to do right, because we all sin and fall short of the grace of God. I’m talking about those extra religious people who go out looking for some dirt to get into…and then turn around and judge you for supposedly not being as “holy” as they are.
I’m not sure if this comment answers any of your questions, but I just had to write this. I have a ton of other stuff to say, but I think I’m going to save those thoughts for my own blog….
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When do you begin to put your own ideas of what is right and wrong before the scripture you follow dearly?
when you start looking within and stop listening to bullshyt ppl who claim to be “holier than thou” tell you and make you guilty about i.e premartital sex
And can you do that without being hypocritical?
No, not all the time. I mean life doesnt come with a manual..not that i know of anyways.
But i think that if you recognize your hypocrisy and are prepared to open up your mind and alter your view..that can be powerful and spiritually strenghtening…its the people who will not -must not & wont change who pose the real problem.
…yea i’m bizzack
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
@Black and Trapped in Toronto: We missed you…
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Black and Trapped in Toronto Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Awww…making me tear up and shyt..I’ve been reading believe me & I voted..yea thats right!
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Cheekie Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
I missed ya too, girlie!
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To answer the original question, I don’t put my own ideals of what is right and wrong before scripture. I am a very devout Christian and scripture is where I get my concept of right and wrong.
I think the conclusion that many people have to come to is whether they really believe what the Bible says (Or any other faith scripture). Christianity is a mutually exclusive faith and you can’t pick and choose which parts of the Bible you believe and which you don’t. Either you believe wholly or you are an apostate. I choose to live my life peaceably, in accordance to scripture beacuse I believe it is pleasing toward God. This means that I live a very clean lifestyle (No drinking, drugs, other controlled substances, sexual abstinance).
It is hypocritical for people to condemn homosexuals for leading sinful lifestyles while themselves living habitually, willfully sinful lifestyles themselves.
My problem arises with the faux-spiritual-I-hate-religion-but-I-try-to-be-a-good-person subscribers. I would say 90% of these people are NOT spiritual. Start a conversation about their spiritual exploration, their prayer lives, their meditation game, there search for truth & knowledge of God, or their study of “spiritual” text and you’ll mostly get blank stares. These folks are people who are mad at the Church because of a few hypocrites and the Church’s position against socially-acceptable vices like premarital sex, minor drug use, etc etc. Just grow up and say you quit church because you didn’t like the standards and the fact that people IN the church couldn’t live up to those standards either. Unfortunately, the Bible says that’s a good enough reason to Quit God.
I strongly oppose homosexual relationships being considered marriage simply because the Bible says it’s wrong. (1 Corinthians 6:9). Now while I have an obligation to love every person regardless of their lifestyle, I must be like Jesus who said to the adulterous woman, “go and sin no more.” Because I know that homosexuality is displeasing to God I cannot myself condone it. I support traditional marriage because that is the way God has ordained it. (Adam & Eve – not Adam & Steve). I do believe that God has a plan for everything we see in the natural world. Ex: All the planets revolve around the sun, the tides come in and out twice a day. We have four seasons in a year. These are not coincidences – and the same with Human beings. It’s not a conincidence that it takes a man and a woman to procreate.
I treat everyone regardless of their background with equal respect. But the fact remains that many Christians believe that gay marriage makes the statement that homosexuality is right. And it’s not.
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Seattle Washington Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 6:41 pm
I respect your candor and welcome your perspective. I actually was anticipating more folks to have your point of view regarding religion and morality. I do agree with you to a certain extent. It is a good thing not to be hypocritical and pick and choose which parts of the Bible you want to follow and which you disregard. Think that’s been brought up several times today. Also, I’m very respectful of the fact that you’ve chosen to totally immerse yourself and live the scripture in your daily life. Most of us fall quite short. Myself included.
However, I must say that going as far as calling all else who don’t live your lifestyle “apostates” may be going too far. Even Jesus welcomed all of those who were working towards the light of the Lord even though they may stumble and fall along the way.
I also agree with you that many (maybe not 90%) of the folks who say they’re spiritual use this as a cover to not follow the edicts of their religion, but there are people out there who have studied other religions and practices in search of the Higher Power. I know this because I am one of those people.
The people that have done this will know that these basic standards are found across all religions. They will also know of many stories of eventual devout practitioners who made their way through the vices towards God. While there are people, like you, who’ve remained strong in their faith, there are many more stories of folks who needed to walk the long road to get to God.
As far as your opinion towards homosexuality, I cannot discuss this with you because I can see we will go nowhere. You’re sound in your religious as I am in my morals. I’ll just say we’ll agree to disagree.
However, if you’re going to list natural causes as back up I will need to retort. Many species actually practice homosexual activity, even our closest cousins the monkey and the ape. To say it’s not natural is unfounded.
Please answer the following question for me though. If a dude tells me that it wasn’t his choice to be gay, that he was made like this, who am I to tell him that he’s going to hell? If God made him this way, how can I, as a man, tell him he’s blasphemous when he comes from the same hands that made me? Also, I am no better when I in fact was born with original sin. Am I to point at a book which wasn’t written by God Himself, but by another man with original sin as well?
I hope to hear from you, but for now I’ll say thanks for commenting today. Your perspective was definitely needed. And please come back in the future.
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CHeeKZ believes in liberty not fairy tales Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:00 pm
I don’t really share Seattle’s patience for you views. I think they are hypocritical (since you still sin no matter what you abstain from) and hurtful toward the goal of the creation of a more perfect union, which is a worthy goal to strive for since it includes progress in a world we actual knows exists.
At best your point of view could be described as Christian Fascism and intolerable to those that are different from you. But Ill try to keep it civil and not use such barn burning language.
To say a plagiarized book full of scientific inaccuracies should become the end all be all for all in this society demonstrates the controlling nature of religion. There has been no logical reason to restrict marriage to men and women. The restriction in no way benefits our species or society, therefore encouraging such a restriction is oppression. The argument about procreation only is valid if the topic is denying men and women the ablity to marry.
This society has worked so well b/c we were able to separate your beliefs from Seattle’s beliefs. The fact that you can’t separate your beliefs from law show just how strongly the separation is needed. To protect me from you. And that folks is why we need activist judges… b/c we can’t trust our vote all the time.
The same rationale (god ordained, its natural, look at this example in the good book) was used to justify slavery, the crusades, and the inquisition. Not to mention Nazi concentration camps, manifest destiny, and the Salem Witch Trials… I could go on. Heck I could even use the bible to justify the separation of church and state:
All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.–1 Cor.6:12
Lastly god didn’t create adam and eve or steve… you came from a monkey.
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and1grad Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 9:27 pm
“My problem arises with the faux-spiritual-I-hate-religion-but-I-try-to-be-a-good-person subscribers. I would say 90% of these people are NOT spiritual. Start a conversation about their spiritual exploration, their prayer lives, their meditation game, there search for truth & knowledge of God, or their study of “spiritual” text and you’ll mostly get blank stares. These folks are people who are mad at the Church because of a few hypocrites and the Church’s position against socially-acceptable vices like premarital sex, minor drug use, etc etc. Just grow up and say you quit church because you didn’t like the standards and the fact that people IN the church couldn’t live up to those standards either. Unfortunately, the Bible says that’s a good enough reason to Quit God.”
I cant help but be annoyed by someone having the AUDACITY to try to define for others what they have to do to consider themselves “spiritual.” You define for yourself how to celebrate/acknowledge your own beliefs. Since when do you need to study all kinds of text in a search for truth & knowledge as though you’re some kind of Buddhist on a quest for Enlightenment?
But as I thought about it, I thought…this is exactly part of why people leave organized religion. Some of us are tired of being told how to think and how to live. I dont need it. I’m grown. If it works for you, great. I’m over it. Didnt like the standards? There is no standard when no one lives up to it in the first place.
My intent isnt to diss religion but if you intend on classifying the majority of us who arent into it as simple and undisciplined, thats an argument I’m more than willing to have.
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sorry I meant to say that’s not a good enough reason to quit god
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Still Water Reply:
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:33 pm
I am going to attempt to answer this one. I empathize with your frustration, but I think that have demonized the idea of spirituality and are attempting to diagnose its origins.
I cannot speak for everyone else, but I have not “Quit God”.
To me, spirituality is the belief in a higher being. An entity that is supernatural and not made of matter. An unseen force greater than our imaginations could ever conjure.
Religion is a specific set of guiding principles and practices in association with that belief. Religion provides you the story and the lessons. It is a roadmap.
I think that it is commendable that you have stayed on the straight and narrow road. But many people find that hard to do, not only because because it is difficult to fellowship with others who you know are not true to the path, but also because the Bible contradicts modern life.
I don’t know you in any way, but I am assuming that you do not rock a veil in the way that Paul states women should in 1 Corinthians 11:3-10…
I am assuming that when you go to church… you speak.
I say this to show that throughout the centuries, society has changed, but the Bible specifically, has not. None of the religious texts have evolved. WE as humans have chosen which principles we choose to follow and which ones we choose to ignore. This has led to confusion, separation and hatred.
When I consider the purpose for all the religious texts, I believe that humans are expected to live clean, honest and productive lives. We should be humble and thankful for our blessings, being sure to share our joy with others… I aim to do just that.
I quit religion, because I am not convinced that we as humans know exactly what we should be doing right now, but I think the true crime would be to pretend to know and persecute others based on our guessing.
Over time, society (people and ideals) has changed. The Earth has changed. Heck, Pluto isn’t even a planet anymore. Everything is different from when the Bible was written.
But God still remains.
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So Let’s get a few thing straight.
No one on earth has the ability to put someone else in heaven or in hell. Please re-read my post if you think that I made any assertion that people who don’t go to church are “simple.” I actually have more respect for aethiests who say, “screw it, I don’t believe in God” than folks who are wishy-washy or confused in their worldview. For people who are mad at my typification of spiritual people I ask sincerely what does “spiritual” mean to you? What does that LOOK like in practicle application to your life? What concrete steps do you take to invest in your relationship with God? (I am not being jocular and would actually like responses on this)
In my experience and interaction, particularly with young people, the notion of spiritual in actual practice has meant “In theory I believe in some type of God out their in the universe – but I don’t subscribe to any religious institution because I have been hurt by other members of that assembly – and plus church people are judgemental and don’t follow all their own rules so therefore I choose to give religion the middle finger.” In practice it means simply they don’t go to mosque, temple, or church. If that has not been your experience, I am interested in learning the experience other people have had.
@ And1grad, spirituality and going to church are NOT the same thing and I do believe that there are many “church folks” who won’t make it in. (Jesus even said so in Matthew 24). But I think you hit the head on the nail EXACTLY. People leave organized religion because they don’t want anyone else telling them how to live their lives. Most people do not want anyone else to tell them “hey maybe you shouldn’t do this or that.” Their retort is “Well, since you’re not perfect – you have no basis to even address what I’m doing.”
The sad part is that what this attitude yeilds is a whole lot of moral relativism. And this problem goes to the heart of this post’s topic. Where do you get your concept of right and wrong? Do you get it from your faith? Do you get it from an institution? Do you decided for yourself on a case by case basis? Do you have an overarching worldview that hands down dictums? The problem arises when everyone has their own concept of what is right and what is wrong. Some may feel its right to molest children, others think it’s wrong. Some feel its okay to cheat on spouses, others think it’s wrong. Some feel it’s moral or even just to blow up public buildings as suicide bombers, others think that is appalling. So at what step do we form a consensus if everyone has their own opinion on what is right and wrong? Where does your concept of right and wrong come from? Because if the answer to that is “I don’t know” than that is a HUGE problem. How can we even speak out against grave injustices like murder, or fraud on wall street, or abuse? Because the argument can be made, “Well that person thinks it right – so don’t judge”
And @ Seattle – The Bible comments heavily on the nature of homosexuality and while I hear what you are saying, I do believe that the Bible is right on this matter. My best friend is gay but that don’t mean I agree with his lifestyle.
@Cheekz I would hardly call attempting to live by the Bible’s standard a code of Christian Facism. Just like when you play a team sport, you wear your uniform, look out for your teammates, follow the sport’s rules, and abide by the Ref’s whistle. If you don’t want to do any of these things then you probably aren’t a great teammate.
Finally, one thing I will say is that I think that people really have this ill concept that people of faith really have to be perfect to have any sense of credibility. Ex: “Girl, you’ve got a tatoo – that ain’t right.” And the one thing I really like about Christianity is is it’s not about a scale weighing all your good and bad deeds – and if the good outweigh the bad, then you make it in. (I’m really not so sure most people would make it in if that’s the case). You can be the most treaterous liar, murderer, adulterer etc. for 90% of your life – but if you turn around and start walking toward God you too can live in paradise.
I’m not a Christian because I am perfect, I am a Christian because I am NOT perfect and need God’s help.
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and1grad Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I’m not one of the people who dont go to church b/c I dont want people telling me what to do. I’m one of the people who dont need it. I have no use for church. For those that do, great. You asked questions about how we ascertain morality. To me, the answer is simple. Morality is inherent. Only the truly insane, or extremely brain damaged, dont know when they’re doing something wrong. Morality will always be relative. The church hasnt done anything to change that.
Also, I’m not one of the people who say dont judge. Your brain is hardwired to judge. If you think you can control that, you cant. You will judge actions, people, etc. This is fact. So I say put yourself in a position that the judgment you receive is favorable. And if you dont, recognize that you dont and either do something about it or shut up.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 2:25 pm
@and1grad: I am in 100% co-signage of this comment. Ish is real.
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
July 23rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
“Only the truly insane, or extremely brain damaged, dont know when they’re doing something wrong.”
I would also like to add the Brainwashed also are unaware when they are doing something wrong.
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