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Going Left: A Response to Yesterday’s Gay/Lesbian Post
I'm Still Talking About It
I have a lot on my mind. Bare with the flow.
Yesterday I wrote an article about raising a child that shows early signs of wanting to identify with the opposite sex. I’ve had a chance to review the comments and it’s incredibly obvious that there’s still a serious rift in the community on whether it’s a conscious choice or innate realization as it relates to sexuality. Though I hinted at my thoughts, I didn’t say too much on how I felt so that I could continue figuring out how I wanted to attack the topic without creating an unproductive firestorm. Let me just knock this off early since people have expressed their curiosity in my opinion.
I think more males are born gay than females that are born lesbians. Growing up, I knew my fair share of tomboys and gender-boys that were a bit feminine in their habits, but for whatever reason I sensed a difference in who was what. Given how often I’ve heard mature women say that they’re done or have been done with men because of the shortage of “good dudes” out there and their conversion to the other side, I can’t help but feel that my opinion has some validity to it. So yeah, that’s that. Moving on…
I read a few comments and got a couple messages from people telling me they couldn’t co-sign the apparent homophobia that I expressed in the first paragraph of the post. In response to that, I have a simple question:
Had I kept it completely PC and not shared the honest internal rumblings that I’ve felt as a black man at the thought of raising a son that leaned toward being gay or switching s*xes in early development, would you have had anything to say at all?
One thing I’ve learned in the process of blogging for about 2.5 years now is that people respond to s*x, relationship chatter, celebrity gossip, and controversy. As I’ve continued to grow as a writer, my focus has been on providing sincere and thought-provoking content that doesn’t cross into the extreme for the sake of getting comments and drawing traffic. Before I go into the next part of the discussion, let me say something that I’ve been meaning to say for a while.
I am extremely concerned for black people. This isn’t because I think we’re inferior or not capable of making the progress that many of those that came before us worked so hard to achieve. It’s because more often than not when it comes to topics that truly affect our ability to form stable bonds as a family and community, we become mute and instead seek those things that keep us entertained and in a zone of comfort. Though I often joke, I don’t do this to entertain. I do this to make people think. I want to see us succeed. If that’s not your cup of tea, I can link you to 20 different blogs more aligned with your interests. But when we continue to struggle and perpetually wonder why we can’t make progress that we’ve been anticipating for decades, understand that you made a conscious decision to opt out of that discussion a long time ago.
Speaking of family and getting back to the topic at hand, I think we struggle with addressing these types of issues upfront as we’re determining relationship partners and figuring out how we’d like to proceed in our lives. I mentioned a family in yesterday’s post where the mother and father didn’t see eye-to-eye on how to raise their son that was making it clear that he liked all things feminine and fabulous. While the father reprimanded his son for his curiosity and “confusion,” the mother took on the more nurturing role of confirming that what the son liked was okay. She even went as far as buying him dolls and painting his nails in an effort to support. As you can probably imagine, the father struggled with this.
There was a fundamental difference in their approaches to raising a child, regardless of who he turned out to be, that was clear they didn’t discuss upfront. And though this isn’t a minority situation in the way that we think of it, it does represent one of the many things that we sweep under the rug that seriously deserves discussion as we’re getting to know each other on a deeper level. I believe that we struggle to establish a family upfront because we don’t do our due diligence to address truly important issues. Or, the things that we do choose to focus on aren’t necessarily the things that will provide us the best opportunity to develop a solid and enduring foundation as individuals and families.
Will my son, assuming I have one and not a daughter, be allowed to wear dresses and play with dolls in the most influential development years? No. I understand that this approach has its repercussions. But as I see it now, it’s a risk that I’m willing to take. And you can best believe that whomever is my wife will not be surprised about this when the time comes.
Communication is one of, if not the most important, aspects of a relationship. It’s an area where I think we struggle significantly because of our pride and our hesitancy to tackle subjects that actually matter. But of course, that’s just my 2 cents.
If you haven’t read the first part of the series, I urge you to do so (click here) and to also read the comments. With regard to this segment, what are your overall thoughts? Did I go off the deep end (You can be honest)? Am I pushing for a cause that’s never going to realized? Are there any other thoughts that I’ve sparked that you’d like to share? Please do. I’d love for us to start tempering entertainment with improvement and self-sustainment.
I Started Blogging as a Rambling Black Guy,
119 Responses to “Going Left: A Response to Yesterday’s Gay/Lesbian Post”
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“When we continue to struggle and perpetually wonder why we can’t make progress that we’ve been anticipating for decades, understand that you made a conscious decision to opt out of that discussion a long time ago.”
True!
I think that it’s more than our pride/ego that is impacted. I think a LOT of us grow up in families where REAL communication isn’t the focus; people don’t know how to talk or listen. Then throw a complex issue into the mix the communication abilities get even more wacky and disabled.
Also, I think it’s a trip that people don’t talk about the little things and IMO how you want to raise kids is HUGE (if you want them, when you want them, how far apart you want them). But, then, on the having kids thing, most kids are unplanned so it’s not like the parents have time, say 9 months, to discuss and attempt to hash out any of these issues.
*I haven’t read yesterday’s blog … I’ll be back with further comments
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 2nd, 2010 at 11:56 pm
But, then, on the having kids thing, most kids are unplanned so it’s not like the parents have time, say 9 months, to discuss and attempt to hash out any of these issues.
**floats to bed with abs burning from laughter**
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SBF Addicted to Retail Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:31 am
*daydreams… hmmm slims abs’*
Cough… Ahem… sorry… anywho… she’s right. most of our community has unplanned pregnancies and luckily most parents won’t have to deal w/ something of this depth. the most we’ll need to know is how to keep lil’ ray ray off the block. do we lock em up & show em tough love or cover his secrets/dead bodies and pray he gets better?
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:57 am
*Bust out laughing* @ your daydream
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I am extremely concerned for black people. This isn’t because I think we’re inferior or not capable of making the progress that many of those that came before us worked so hard to achieve. It’s because more often than not when it comes to topics that truly affect our ability to form stable bonds as a family and community, we become mute and instead seek those things that keep us entertained and in a zone of comfort.
^^^Because of this statement, you will forever have my respect…I mean that!
Will my son, assuming I have one and not a daughter, be allowed to wear dresses and play with dolls in the most influential development years? No. I understand that this approach has its repercussions.
^^^So are you really willing to jeopardize your child’s ability to develop self-esteem because you don’t want him to play with cards? You would be willing to have a child that feels that they are unloved because they don’t exactly fit what you feel is right? What if you have a daughter & she wants to play with GI Joes & wear boy clothes? Will that be ok? I’m not attacking but i would like to know as someone in the early Childhood field & we talk about children’s psychosocial & psychosexual development & how it impacts them later in life.
With regard to this segment, what are you overall thoughts? Did I go off the deep end (You can be honest)?
^^^No, i don’t think that…you have your opinions and you are sharing them like any other blogger would.
Am I pushing for a cause that’s never going to realized?
^^^No, one day (hopefully soon), black people will wake up and realize that we need to do better but we need more people to help them to wake up from their ignorant slumber.
Are there any other thoughts that I’ve sparked that you’d like to share?
^^^Well, i stated a few but when my family member came out, she was so destructive about it. She caused so much hurt & confusion in the wake of her admitting her sexuality. I saw tears fall from other members eyes that i never wanted to see all because they couldn’t understand why she would go about things the way she did, why she wouldn’t just go to them and tell them whats up. She was recklessly meeting girls from the internet in places that weren’t safe and bringing them to our home knowing that one of the chicks had a gang affiliation. I say this all this to say that it was because she didn’t think that the family wouldn’t accept or support her. This is what happens when a person who doesn’t believe they have the love or support of their family & friends. They act out & either hurt others or themselves. I accept my family members sexuality (though i DON’T like her girlfriend) and it is important that others do too when it comes to their own.
Sorry for the long response…its just something I know a little too well as a person with a family member that is homosexual. This was a great & thought provoking post Slim.
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You already know that when people speak their mind, you get villified. Continue to speak on REAL topics, and deal with the comments accordingly.
Cosign the entire post.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:15 am
I hope my response didn’t come off as i was trying to villify him because that was not my intention.
You know what was funny, the Haitian side (the ones that know) were a lot more accepting of my family member than i thought they would be…
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I am trying here, but as a gay person raised by parents who will have non of it, I can give you some first hand info.
Yes, you can stop your child from playing with dolls (or trucks) and acting effeminate (or masculine) IN YOUR PRESENCE. There will come a time when you are not there to see what they are doing.
Now, as a caring and present father, would you rather your child comes to you for information, relies on you for support and stands tall in whatever community he/she chooses? Or would you rather they carried severe emotional issues with them from one relationship to the next, hiding every struggle, every story of love gained or lost or the worst (which happened in my case) complete exclusion from anything important in their lives.
It really is your choice who or what comes first. Your child or your bigotry.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 9:00 am
Hi Gigi,
I appreciate the commentary. My honest thought process is that this isn’t bigotry or hatred. I’d just feel some type of way about not at least trying to raise my son the way that I was raised. If he went on to become gay, whether pleased or displeased, I could at least say that I tried. At that point, it’s my call/responsibility to support him. I could never see disowning my son for being homosexual, but I could see myself telling him I don’t want him walking into my house wearing a dress and a heels. I think at the point of adulthood it’s a mutual respect thing.
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cjsunshine Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 9:51 am
Sorry hun…that wouldn’t be support or acceptance.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:22 am
Yeah, I’m not going to support him walking into my house wearing a dress. Same way if red were the color of anti-gayness, I wouldn’t walk into his place wearing all red or buy him a red shirt for Christmas. Is it really that hard to put on a pair of jeans? Who doesn’t own jeans? lol
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SBF Addicted to Retail Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:35 am
I can accept your sexuality w/o having to see you in a dress. The dress means nothing… I just prefer not to see it. That’s acceptance, I accept you my gay son… do I support you… maybe that’s something different b/c NO in this case Slim is not buying his son a dress for Christmas no matter how bad he wants it.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:23 pm
They can be shown that a dress is not that serious, even if it means that all the female family members wear just jeans/pants to show them that there is no change in who they are. I’m all for wearing jeans & could wear slacks to work…we’ll all dress up as career people and call it a day!
Would matching suits (like the same color/fabric) be ok in this case?
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 10:45 am
Now you just lied! Tsk tsk tsk.
You’re the kind of person who doesn’t want to hear anything past “I’m gay.” You know that, right?
Do a reexamination. Why don’t you want to see him in a dress? Because you will feel shame? Because your friends and neighbors will laugh?
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CHeeKZ Money Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:00 am
I might lose my title as the most liberal man in America however I have to be honest..
I know you probably can share various emotional stories Gigi of children being forced into roles they don’t feel. However, that does not mean Slim putting his choice on clothes on his boy is forcing something on him. A child has to learn gender roles first before he can choose one. A child can’t be born with an urge to wear a dress. How the hell does he know what a dress is? What if we lived someplace wear they didn’t have dresses? It almost feels like you are selling child rearing short.
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SBF Addicted to Retail Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:38 am
& think I might lose my mind here but I think I agree w/ CHeeKZ.
That’s what I felt about the post yesterday. I just feel like there is a responsibility of the parent that some people are selling short. Children can not do as they please all the time. Hell I never wanted to wear clothes as a kid, my affinity was for NO clothes at all til I was like 7. But my mother didn’t ship me off to a nudist camp, she fought w/ me and did what was in my best interest until I was old enough to make choices for myself. In her house, I wear clothes. period.
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Beef Bacon Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:11 am
I co-sign with you SBF and CHeeKZ!
I guess this is why children are confused because the adults cannot even get it right. Children should have choices, but not THAT many. Why are so many saying the child should be supported, blah blah, WHAT ABOUT THE PARENTS? The parents are the ones that need the support obviously because if a parent does not know where he/she stands on a certain issue such as homosexuality, there are bigger issues at play.
Parents have the responsibility to set boundaries and teach. If my mom had supported all the crazy ISH I wanted to do when I was young – OMG…Where would I be in life? Parents are supposed to protect children, even from themselves at times.
IMO, I think we as adults put too much of our OWN ISSUES onto our children. If my son wanted to wear a dress I would simply say no and keep it going. Not start wondering if he’s gay or wants to be transgendered! It’s not really that serious. i.e., Mommy, I want to eat candy all night until I get sick—-NO! That simple. Will the child be upset at first, maybe, will they get over it YES.
I feel sorry for our future parents and children. It sounds as if some adults are not too clear on the roles of a parent and a child and YOU CAN NOT KNOW THIS UNTIL YOU LIVE IT—-TRUST ME!
What my children DECIDE to do once they are adults is on them. I did my part! Because that is what I know my role is—to raise my child to be the best person he/she can be regardless of preferences, environment, etc.
It DID NOT KILL me to follow the rules given to me by my family. In fact, it allowed me to realize that there are rules to life in general, whether we like it or not.
Children do not KNOW enough about LIFE to make such DRASTIC CHOICES. When teenagers have babies we get HEATED, but feel that little boys should be supported wearing glitter and dresses??????
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:56 am
Children do not KNOW enough about LIFE to make such DRASTIC CHOICES.
^^^I’d say you underestimate them because they may not demonstrate what they know but they know when something is different, they observe not just parents but their peers & their community…they are learning just like how adults still are…if you’ve stopped learning, then you’re dead…there is always something new to learn.
When teenagers have babies we get HEATED, but feel that little boys should be supported wearing glitter and dresses??????
^^^How is this the same? A child is being brought into the world by another child-a child that is hardly even ready to take responsibility for themselves (watch 16 & pregnant & you’ll see exactly what i’m saying). Wearing a dress or playing with sparkly things hardly constitute the same response. A parent’s fragile ego can be hurt in both cases but the bank will not be broken nor will they have to worry about how they have to change their lives for another because they want to wear a dress every once in a while.
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Beef Bacon Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Do you have children; do you REMEMBER being a child? To put adults on the same level as 10 year olds is not giving the adults ANY credit. I was so naïve and invincible in my 21 and under years. I am sure my frontal lobe not being fully developed had something to do with this.
I KNOW I am more knowledgeable than MY children are, not sure about others but if you say so. I agree with you that children are always learning, but are you going to let your child experiment with everything they learn about? NO.
You said yourself….”A child is being brought into the world by another child-a child that is hardly even ready to take responsibility for themselves”
THIS is my whole point. A child is not responsible enough to take on MAJOR issues such as sexuality and gender. They are not even clear on WHAT all this means. These are adult issues and should be handle when emotionally and mentally ready to make sound choices– a 10 year old cannot do this yet. Hearing and seeing something does not mean you understand it.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Do you have children; do you REMEMBER being a child?
^^^I may not have children but i do WORK with them…i’ve worked with MANY of them (both with and without special needs)…i’ve also helped raise my sister (who was born right before i turned 4) and helped raise just about all of my younger cousins because i was the oldest grandchild. And yes, i do remember being a child…if you saw one of my comments, i went back to a memory from when i was FOUR! If you don’t remember your early childhood experiences, then that’s on you but i do and they impact who i am today.
I KNOW I am more knowledgeable than MY children are, not sure about others but if you say so. I agree with you that children are always learning, but are you going to let your child experiment with everything they learn about? NO.
^^^I never said that your children are more knowledge than you but clearly, you are underestimating what their knowledge basis is. I never said that they should be allowed to experiment with everything but wearing a dress for 5 minutes hardly constitutes as harmful experimenting. My younger cousin used to carry a purse (i was about 5 & he was 2, see, look at that, i remember yet another childhood experience) and no one obsessed over it because it didn’t hurt anyone.
A child is not responsible enough to take on MAJOR issues such as sexuality and gender. They are not even clear on WHAT all this means.
^^^They may not be clear on what it means but they have a basic understanding that it is different…they know when they aren’t the same from other children…for example, they may say so & so is taller than them or this person is a girl when they are a boy (I’m drawing this knowledge from experiences in classrooms when children state their observations). They learn that there are differences between people early on in life. And from my family member coming out, even though they dealt with dudes, when they came out, they said they ALWAYS felt the way towards women that they clearly do now. I don’t think sexuality is a choice but hiding it is.
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CHeeKZ the Peace Keeper Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:42 pm
If the bank will not be broke for ME if my son wears a dress? Why should the bank be broke for HIM if he can’t wear a dress?
He is learning the boundaries. Boundaries set by ME and the rest of society. But since he is my responsiblity mostly me.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
the bank doesn’t have to be broken for him to get a dress. You can teach them boundaries but you should also be teaching them about compromising. Such as, “I won’t be buying a dress but we can buy your teddy bear one” or something like that. I’ve compromised with students and guess what, it has worked…i’ve seen parents compromise with their children & guess what, it worked. You don’t have to have them up against a brick wall their whole life because of a dress.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:12 pm
In life, there are alternatives and you will teach them those alternatives. You could get them a really big t-shirt & say “this will be your dress”…of course, i’m advocating offering options & there is a way to do so without compromising your beliefs.
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 10:50 am
Again with the irrational arguments. You are comparing a life altering teenage PREGNANCY to a boy asking to wear a dress? What kind of logic is that? Hyperbole?
Nah.
I think the discussion is getting way way off topic here. The original argument set forth by the author is more symbolic of an internal refusal to accept his son’s expression of himself than it is an exact example of what he would do when he first asks for a dress (whether he understands it to be that way or not) and that is the bigotry I am against.
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CHeeKZ the Peace Keeper Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:33 am
As a show of sarcastic truce for our new agreement…
I will allow you to walk around my house naked.
You’re Welcome.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:50 am
I swear ‘fore God I was waiting for that…
<3 ya CHeeKZ lol
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SBF Addicted to Retail Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:24 pm
LOL! I should’ve known… thank you CHeeKZ for accepting me as I am.
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 10:42 am
You are equating NUDITY to a preference for opposite sex clothing? Interesting. Following that kind of logic I could say, “My mother forced me to eat oats porridge as a child and that is why I do not touch it.”
Of course raising a child is important, but the HUGE thing no one is willing to admit is that the moment you hit puberty, you become your own person. Your parent’s influence dwindles and you start to form a World view that is completely independent of theirs.
Parents assume a larger than life role, which our society has given them, but in reality after your child hits puberty the fat lady sung her last tune, packed her bags and drove away in her Cadillac.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:11 am
Completely cosign CHeeKZ. Saying “no” to a child for their better good /= bigotry, it = parenting. Slim not wanting his son to wear a dress is not an act of hatred, he’s teaching him the societal norms of the culture that he lives in. He doesn’t love his son any less. We were all told no at some point and most of us, as adults can see that it was far and away for our betterment, although at the time we felt like it was the most egregious injustice even inflicted upon a teen. Guess what, developing coping skills and dealing with loss are also skills that you, as a parent are responsible for fostering in your child.
Being a parent is hard. Your child will tell you that they hate you and it will sting like none other. They will make mistakes and you will question your parenting. They will have their heart broken and you will be powerless to heal it. But these are the things that you take on when you decide to have a child. Just like making the tough decisions and walking the delicate line between blind support and setting your child up for ridicule from the world.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Just like making the tough decisions and walking the delicate line between blind support and setting your child up for ridicule from the world.
^^^This is why you educate them on how the world is…when they’re young “sweetie, people may laugh at you because you are different and it may hurt your feelings but you know that mommy & daddy love you no matter what”…when they are a teenager “hun, you know that there are some people out there that don’t agree with how you are but you continue to be who YOU are just as they will continue to be who THEY are…you know that we are here for you if you ever start to feel a certain about what people are saying.” The lessons of tolerance, understanding, and acceptance should be continuing throughout their lifetime, not even just about sexuality but also other things as well. If you are so concerned about safety, send them to marital arts or self defense classes early so that way, if anyone tries to harm them, they are able to defend themselves. As a parent, you have the ability to arm them with the tools & knowledge to protect themselves, mentally, physically & spiritually.
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SBF Addicted to Retail Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:30 pm
And THIS is the end:
Being a parent is hard.
It seems as if no one wants to take on the hard job of being a parent anymore. You can not be your child’s friend and rear them as well, the two don’t go hand in hand. My mother didn’t become my friend until I was grown enough to make my own decisions. Once that happened and she was no longer liable for what happened, THEN we became friends. Cooperation w/ children = me doing what the h3ll she told me to do and there were no problems, lol. I think our generation is too PC about raising kids. They can’t raise themselves, period. Our parents generation was not given all these extra fabulous options by their parents… their parents raised them, told them what to do and how to do it & at the appropriate time they were let go to be free to their own devices. Our parents generation are politicians, CEOs, housewives, etc. They turned out just fine… and yes, there are a few bad apples amongst them but that’s just the way it is. There are also perfectly well functioning homosexuals among them who may have had to keep it [their flamboyance -- if they were prone to it] in line until they left the house. Me telling my child NO doesn’t automatically equal them going to a crackhouse, being on anti-depressents or them feeling unloved for the remainder of their childhood experience.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Me telling my child NO doesn’t automatically equal them going to a crackhouse, being on anti-depressents or them feeling unloved for the remainder of their childhood experience.
^^^My father telling me no didn’t equate to that either. My parents were too different people…my father was the disciplinarian while my mother was the nurturing one (same didn’t always go with my sibling). My mother compromised with me, gave me options & trusted that i would make the right choices and i’ve managed to be on the road to being the first grandchild on BOTH sides of the family to get my masters & i’m the ONLY one left of the oldest female grandchildren on my mothers side to not be pregnant or have a child (this is an accomplishment, trust me). I’m not saying “Be your child’s friend, its the only way” but what i am saying is that sometimes, it does not hurt to compromise. Tell them no, they can’t touch the stove or no, they can’t run around in the street because those are safety issues but saying they can’t wear a dress but the teddy bear can shouldn’t seem like an issue (but maybe it is for some).
I agree, parenting is hard, from the moment of conception to the day that either parties expire, it is hard. Some parents struggle will be the same while others will be different just like people’s parenting styles will be different as well. Everyone will handle this situation differently but whether we like it or not, times are changing and what worked on us will not always work on the next generation.
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 10:52 am
SO in your opinion, rather than reshaping our societal norms, we should bend to them and continue what is obviously working (NOT) for us as black people.
C’mon now!
Of course he can say “don’t wear a dress” it doesn’t mean he will not wear it.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:48 am
A child will learn what a dress is because in early childhood, they learn about gender roles. Women wear dresses & men wear suits w/ ties…boys play with trucks while girls play with dolls…boys/men have peens & girls/women have vags…you get my point? In pre-Kindergarten classrooms, they may have dramatic play stations where they get to exhibit knowledge of gender roles but some will dress in a way they feel they better identify with. If you think because a child is 4 or 5 years old, that they don’t know the difference, I’m sorry to say that you would not be correct.
Children can and fill find a way to get their fixes, whether you think they will or not. For example, I’m a compulsive nail biter & have been ever since the age of 4. My dad got SOOOO annoyed/angry by this that he used to beat me every time he saw me even put a finger near my mouth. In order to avoid these beatings, i did my nail biting when he wasn’t around such as in school, when he was at work, etc. This is like with the dress & dolls situation, the child will find other means to do but it just won’t be in your presence & if they do it in school & the teacher knows that a beating may ensue from them wearing a dress they will do one of two (or both things): 1) they won’t tell you and 2) they will report you because they are a mandated reporter (yes, children will tell whats going on in the household & yes, there are very observant teachers out there that will notice the signs).
Just my 22 cents again as someone in the early childhood field…
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Aisha Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:03 pm
I agree with L. Dejean, children understand gender, race and religion sooner than we think. I also agree with CheeKz. When I’m a parent I reserve the right to dress my child how I see fit. The transgender thing, like I said on the post on SBM, is a reach for me. Short of my son threatening to kill himself at the age of 5 if he can’t wear a dress to school, he will be rocking male clothing. I know this is not full on acceptance, but as a teacher, I’ve seen parents “accept” too much from kids and now their child is the boss. That won’t fly.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I think that it is fine to dress them in a pants & t-shirt…in early childhood, put them in elmo, big bird or ernie clothes, you CAN’T lose with them. However, be able to compromise & see what you can reach an agreement about like “wear this & you can carry your favorite teddy bear to school that may or may not be wearing a dress”. Children will work with you as long as they feel you are listening & working with them…that’s helping them develop their self-worth/self-esteem.
What they are not getting at home, they will try to get in school or it will just impact them in school & other places…i wouldn’t want my child attached to someone i find less than savory because they are getting what they wanted from me as their parent from that other person…
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Beef Bacon Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Children will work with you?!?!? WTF?
What I did behind my parents back was one thing, but now I see that the things they did not agree or compromise with me on were for my own good. When you are a child, you don’t see it this way.
Children will find trouble with or without your help. Go ahead and let your child smoke crake at home becasue they want to and they may get from school. See the logic there—there is none.
Your duty as a parent is to guide them to what YOU (not society, tv, or the media) know to be right.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Children will find trouble with or without your help. Go ahead and let your child smoke crake at home becasue they want to and they may get from school. See the logic there—there is none.
^^^crack & a dress are completely two different extremes…a person wouldn’t seek out the need for drugs if they didn’t have any discontent within themselves. Nail biting for me was self-soothing (and it still is), just like wearing a dress maybe. A dress will not hurt them like crack would.
Children will work with you?!?!? WTF?
^^^Yes, they will! A relationship between parent and child requires communication & understanding JUST LIKE any other relationship. Did you not have to understand what your parents were saying in order to do what they told you? Did you not have to process the words in order to produce the actions? I’m pretty sure that you did. It is a working relationship whether you are teaching them the ins & outs of society or your household.
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CHeeKZ the Peace Keeper Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:21 pm
isn’t part of his self worth and esteem learning to accept things that he can not control and love his self?
He can’t change the fact that he is black (without a surgery he can’t afford). He can’t change the fact that he is a boy (without an expensive surgery that he can’t afford). What every happened to good old manipulation? The little ninja is only 5, we can’t outsmart him into thinking he WANTS to wear pants? Advertising execs do it to grown folks all the time.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:34 pm
isn’t part of his self worth and esteem learning to accept things that he can not control and love his self?
^^^this is true but of course, you have to show the child that you love them too (mommy and daddy love you for who you are, just how you are right now, in these clothes, in this skin, etc). Keep instilling that into them & positively affirm the things you want to see them continue to do like wearing jeans & a button up or a vest or a mickey mouse shirt, etc.
What every happened to good old manipulation? The little ninja is only 5, we can’t outsmart him into thinking he WANTS to wear pants?
^^^Don’t you know that compromising in early childhood IS manipulation? lol! You get them to do what you want them to do while making them think that they are getting something out of the deal. Let them think that a big t-shirt is a dress…show them that people wear dress type things with jeans underneath so they see it doesn’t change the affect of wearing
a dress-”See that guy, his shirt is so big on him that it looks like a dress, i’m ok with wearing big t-shirts, i wear them too around the house and to sleep”(this, of course, would be an attempt at generalizing). It could possibly work but you never know until you try.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:37 pm
CHeeKZ did you lose weight? Get a hair cut?
Try that thing you been wanting to try?Something about you today…*flushed*Reply
LaBakir Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:41 pm
*cock blocks*
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
LOL, why you hatin?
L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:51 pm
i think it’s the name change…it is very becoming…no, i’m not trying to hit on him, that’s all you Starita! lol
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CHeeKZ is the realist Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:17 pm
L. Dejean .. let me beat.
L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:42 pm
#dear Cheekz…you cool and all but the only thing you will beat around me is a drum. lol
LaBakir Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:59 pm
B/c that’s my e-homie soon to be e-boo,lol (shoutouts to Max).
But you know…ain’t no fun…
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Awww, you get all the smart ones…
but I hear you shareCHeeKZ is the realist Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:21 pm
We still need to communicate on exactly what we expect from each other out this e-relationship. Isn’t that the point of this post?
Starita, thanks for noticing. I have been using this new facial moisturizer for the winter.
LaBakir Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:28 pm
@Starita
LMAO!!! Sharing means caring
@Cheekz….I suppose we do need to communicate the goings on of our e-relationship.
*sings Ginuwine “Stingy”*
Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:30 pm
So you’re saying that your face is super smooth right now…can’t. stop. my. mind. from. going. there.
Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:20 pm
Ok … so here’s the crazy thing. Kids don’t express discontent the same way as adults. So, your future son may not threaten to off himself; he might always talk about being physically ill “my stomach hurts” type stuff and then one day when you aren’t paying 3000% attention your baby has found a way to irreparably harm himself because Mommy/Daddy wouldn’t do something as simple as let him wear a dress and explain how most little boys wear pants, like Daddy and Granddad and Uncle ABC …
This scenario is an extreme case scenario but kids vary. Life varies. Everything varies!
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Hugh Jazz Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:47 pm
Sheera: “So, your future son may not threaten to off himself; he might always talk about being physically ill “my stomach hurts” type stuff and then one day when you aren’t paying 3000% attention your baby has found a way to irreparably harm himself because Mommy/Daddy wouldn’t do something as simple as let him wear a dress and explain how most little boys wear pants”
The thing is, they will likely develop irreparable harm just for having the feelings anyway. You still have to dictate morals and tell them you disapprove. There’s a difference between loving someone and approving their behavior. You may disapprove that your boyfriend doesn’t use coasters or cut his toenails at the kitchen table and tell him all about it. That doesn’t mean you don’t love him.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:09 pm
You still have to dictate morals and tell them you disapprove.
^^^I think it is totally ok to tell them you disapprove & try to instill morals but in the end, they will grow up to be who they are and hopefully, who they are will be happy & healthy.
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Hugh Jazz Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Agreed. And I’d love my son regardless. But I still have a responsiblity to raise him. When I’m done raising him, he can do whatever he likes.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:04 pm
And I’d love my son regardless. But I still have a responsiblity to raise him.
^^^I’m glad & i’m also glad that the responsibility is being taken rather than for shunning to occur or to make them feel guilty about it. There are ways to go about it without making them feel guilty.
Along with letting him do whatever he likes, just continue to advocate being safe in the process! (Though I’m sure you will!)
L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:18 pm
My family member didn’t attempt to off herself, however, she was destructive in the way she came out, so much so that it brought a lot of hurt to some of my other family members. What scares me is that now suicide seems to be an option for people now because they aren’t being accepted…this is what i aim to avoid. This is also why we have to have safe zones now because a person can’t go to just anyone & feel like they can be accepted! I rather see my child in a dress than a casket…#JustSayin
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 10:35 am
You do understand that GENDER exists on a sliding scale, right? That there are people who are neither (And not because of the anatomy between their legs)
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Gigi Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 11:05 am
In my comment I was trying to address a root cause (like you say in your post above) but instead this degenerated into a rather playful discussion about gay men wearing dresses and high heels. Sigh. I’m not saying we shouldn’t have fun as we talk, it just seems that joshing is used when we want to avoid a discussion and that is aggravating.
It is obvious that the black community still retains the right to their bigotry because “that is not how they were raised” or “I’m a parent and I’m gonna make the rules” or “society says” and not challenge ourselves to look deeper.
Why would your son wearing a dress aggravate you so much? That is the conversation we should be having and a cop out is UNACCEPTABLE otherwise this discussion is just not worth it.
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Communication is key. But people don’t like to discuss things that make them uncomfortable, whether they matter or not. And it causes a relationship that may have had a chance of surviving to break down. As far as having a homosexual child, no one wants to think about having a child that chooses to live a lifestyle ‘outside the norm’. We are socialized to conform, be ‘normal’ and do ‘what everyone else is doing’ ESPECIALLY when it comes to sexuality. So it is natural for a parent to try to ‘impose’ their sense of ‘normal’ on their child. However, just because it is natural doesn’t make it right. I’m not a parent yet. Not sure what I would do. One thought is to allow my son or daughter to openly express their sexuality preferences under my roof (play with dolls, trains, try a new hairstyle) but maybe they will have to dress a bit more ‘conservative,’ ie; no tutus, high heels or glitter to school. That might be too much of a distraction. So I would try to compromise. Once they get out on their own they can do what they want. I hope my husband would agree but if not he and I will have to reach a compromise.
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good post, nice follow up. I tend to agree with you. I don’t think I’d let my son wear dresses.
on the other side, I had somewhat of a visceral reaction when reading about how Brad & Angelina Jolie allow their daughter Shiloh to dress like a boy and she even answers to a boy name from my understanding (this could no longer be the case, I read this months ago.) None of that means she will be gay, or transgendered but it still rubs me wrong.
I too am worried about black people and have had many discussions with those close to me about the state of family, relationships, friendships and just how we treat each other in general. Having taken courses on social and child psychology, marriage and family, etc they helped shape my viewpoints on many of these issues. I can admit that before yesterday its not necessarily something I would have thought to go deep into discussion on a blog–and you and I talked last week on twitter briefly about the nature of sensationalized blog topics versus serious ones.
I don’t think its that people don’t care–I just think some things are better discussed, with actionable takeaways in a different environment. However, technology has changed the way we interact with each other–and we should embrace all venues. It also has allowed for many people to hide behind usernames and not be REAL with who they are, let alone real with how they feel about others. Other people feel like they can’t express their genuine thoughts without being bashed for going against the grain. I do think these are topics that we must talk about, if we truly care about each other and want to have better understanding of how we should relate to each other; that communication is necessary to develop BEFORE people have children, IMO.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 10:24 am
I think your reference to the role technology has played in how we have these discussions is a big one (pause). Very good point. Gonna have to come back to this later on today when there aren’t people hovering over my shoulder.
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Hmmm….I”ve read a lot of comments between today and yesterday about what toys and activities a child chooses to play with. Of course there are…I guess “social norms” of what little girls and little boys should play with.
I’ve seen plenty of Black fathers damn near knock their son’s head off for hugging a doll…yelling at the kid, then shoving a more gender “appropriate” toy in his face. Why is it wrong for the little boy to show affection b/c that’s simply what he is displaying. I feel that the issue of Black men not being in touch with their emotions, knowing how to show affection…in a healthy manner is a BIG issue all b/c we don’t won’t our boys to grow up to be a “sissy” or a “fag”.
And in most cases these boy grow up to be men w/ a warped sense of masculinity. I know a few of them. I think in trying to “avoid” or curb a certain type of behavior…sometimes another is inforced.
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CVal Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:07 am
Social norms exist for a reason, they are the standards that your society collectively accepted even if they are not agreed upon. As is such, the role of the child rearing adult is to teach the children the norms. In this case, its gender roles. Children need to learn what the roles are before they can decide what they wish to follow. Only way to learn is if parents or caregivers show them.
Emotion and what toy to play with or clothes to wear are different issues that do have some relation in regards to gender behavior. I don’t believe that a man telling his son to play with a truck instead of Barbie’s convertible necessarily affects how he will teach his son to express his emotions.
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LaBakir Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:18 am
I never said a man telling his son to play with a truck instead of Barbie’s convertible affects how he will teach his son to express his emotions. Its the way he does it, which in my response I said the men I’ve witness have YELLED at their sons…making his son feel bad about being affectionate (and maybe even confusing him to some degree). And this type of intereaction is not positive on any level.
Furthermore, I do believe that emotion and what toys kids play with are related to emotion…even how they interact with others. Ex. Girls are given dolls and allowed to play house, nuturing the…well nuturing side of them. Just b/c a little boy hugs a doll does not mean anything.
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Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:30 am
Social norms are socially constructed, and thus, socially defined. If we, as Black parents and potential/future parents, opt to teach our children that aspects of theirselves are unacceptable, that’s on us and we’ll have to deal with those social consequences. It is possible to teach your child what is socially acceptable while allowing him/her to be divergent. For instance, in some areas of our society fighting is a socially accepted form of expressing anger, outrage, etc. while in other areas (mainstream) it isn’t; so people teach their kids XYZ socially acceptable or divergent things based on their beliefs.
I’m almost tempted to ask which is right? But, IMO there is no right cause I won’t be raising your (or anyone else’s) kids … I’ll just treat them for their attachment and adjustment and major depressive disorders when they are adults. Oh … I forgot – their substance dependence (since they’re going to need something to numb the pain of a childhood of rejection).
BTW … this isn’t directed at anyone … it just happens to be where I started my (long-winded) comment.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:33 am
Whatever happened to “It takes a village to raise a child”? Your comment made me think of that.
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Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
U know, maybe that’s part of the disconnect. We all talk about raising our kid with our husband/wife and don’t consider that there will be/are other influential people in kids lives.
Could you imagine if parents set the standard but allowed others to actively play a part in guiding their children? Maybe it wouldn’t matter as much if a kid did something that’s socially unusual (cause little Black boys in sequin dresses is DEFINITELY on the low end of social occurences). Maybe we would see parenting as something where we don’t have to bear all of the burden if something goes wrong. Maybe kids wouldn’t grow up to be criminals; since IMO gay and cross dressing aren’t as quick to harm and kill as a life of crime.
When I was a kid my family seemed like they wouldn’t accept gays but as an adult I know (from some great debates) that my perspective wasn’t true. So, maybe part of the reason people back in the day didn’t seem as messed up on some levels, is that they had a LOT of people influencing them and it wasn’t just people they lived with or that had the same last name or same blood – it was anybody with eyes and the ability to correct behaviors that could lead the child to physical harm. (I’m not so sure about emotional and physical harm but we work on those things more now a days than previously, which is an improvement!)
*long-winded, yet again
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I didn’t comment on SBM blog for several reasons yesterday. One of the reasons is I too am not comfortable with the gay lifestyle and I find that difficult because I live in a city with one of the highest gay/lesbian populations (Long Beach) in America. Everyone that knows me intimately knows that if I ever have a child, I want to have a son. I would be heart broken if my son was gay. Every fiber of my being would be overwhelmed with anguish because although I know I would love my son, I wouldn’t accept him fully. I was brought up to love gays and lesbians however I can’t condone the lifestyle. Unfortunately, I realize that not accepting a certain type of lifestyle makes me a closed-minded person and I am ok with that.
Please excuse any typos in my response folks, I’m headed to a conference and wrote this out on my crackberry. Keep writing these type of posts Slim and shun the naysayers.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 9:53 am
Writing on the crackberry has caused me much disarray and confusion.
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First to answer your questions: no you did not go off the deep end, but if people think you did that’s not necessarily a bad place to be; sooner or later the black community will have to deal with this among many other things we don’t like talking about.
“I believe that we struggle to establish a family upfront because we don’t do our due diligence to address truly important issues. Or, the things that we do choose to focus on aren’t necessarily the things that will provide us the best opportunity to develop a solid and enduring foundation as individuals and families.”
Great comment. I agree that this is a family issue and most people don’t plan on things not going as they planned so it is normally too late. But to flip it, there are sooo many things that can happen that it is impossible to be fully prepared for every circumstance. I personally would raise this topic with a prototype and if he says “beat the hell out of them” or “ain’t no gay in my house” I couldn’t go any further because it’s obvious beating and shunning only cause further damage even on “normal” children. If he’s unsure or at least open to roll with it as it comes that’s cool. I know a few couples that have divorced over parenting problems so it is important to learn compromise.
I think you went pretty deep with this one…uncomfortable deep so mission accomplished.
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“that’s why when you talk that tough talk i never feel ya/ you sound real good and you play the part well/but the energy you giving off is so unfamiliar, i don’t feel ya”
(WE NEED SOMETHING REALER!) <— Could this be Slim?
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I only have the comment on one post. So here it is:
I hate black people. I hate us because I know us. I know us because I love us. Weird I know. I used to think that it was because the world was so difficult that we didn’t want to deal with shi++y situations in our spare time. Naw, that aint it though. The problem is that as a society (black, white, everyone) we are not smart and not very interested in intelligent conversation. It aint a black thing, its a dumb people thing. The number one disease in the world is stupidity.
Here is my view on parenting a gay kid: You’re a boy or a girl. You can switch to the other on your dollar and on your time. I hate to say it but if being gay is a trait (or something) that you’re born with, then its a genetic mutation. I know this sounds like I’m being homophobic but I’m not. All genetic mutations aren’t bad. Hell, a large majority of them aren’t. I say all of this to emphasize the point that when you have kids, you don’t know how they are going to come out. A kid can come out normal, dumb, dyslexic, gay, a mutant, etc. The bottom line is that because you chose to have that kid, it is your responsibility to raise that kid to the best of your ability and to support them and to keep them generally happy. If wearing a dress and being gay is what makes them generally happy then be my guest. If your kid came out dyslexic, are you going to force him to learn the way the other kids do?
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“it’s a risk that I’m willing to take. And you can best believe that whomever is my wife will not be surprised about this when the time comes.”
i agree with you. i would never allow a son of mine to wear a dress under my watch. i’m not saying you have to be a boy’s boy and play sports and go fly fishing but you will not paint your nails and wear makeup in my household. i plan on discussing things like this with my future wife. not seeing eye to eye on issues like this is something that can cause a rift within a marriage. that’s something that i am not willing have happen. in the end my wife is more important anyway.
like you said in the end communication is key. just how a couple should discuss how they are going to raise a child as far as religious beliefs and discipline, issues like this should also be discussed up front.
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okay, I don’t think you should be vilified for your opinion and I respect the fact that you appear to be honest about your feelings towards homosexuality without making disparaging comments. kudos first and foremost.
I didn’t get a chance to voice my opinion about your post because i’m only just getting round to reading it.
Moving on. Parents always want the best for their children. They want to shield them from all the pain and disappointments that they will encounter in life, but a child would hope that their parents would support them and love them regardless of whether or not they agree with their lifestyle choices. I don’t know if its because I’m born and raised in Europe where being gay is more or less a non-plus issue, but I don’t have a problem with homosexuality. My parents are African, and although I know my parents are not a supporters of the homosexual/trans-gendered lifestyle, I am convinced that they would love me regardless if I was gay/bisexual/trans-gendered. I’m not convinced that being being a homosexual is a choice someone would willing make based on the ridicule alone. it doesn’t seem worth it.If I have kids one day, I wouldn’t say i would be thrilled if they were homosexual/bisexual/trans-gendered,but I would support their decision. As black people i know that the ideal of the nuclear family is important, but I can’t tell someone the way they are living their life is wrong just because it’s different to the way I live mine.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:24 am
Very strong comment. Thanks for dropping by. Where in Europe were you raised?
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michaboa Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:36 am
London, England. Great post btw.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:43 am
“okay, I don’t think you should be vilified for your opinion and I respect the fact that you appear to be honest about your feelings towards homosexuality without making disparaging comments. kudos first and foremost.”
^^^IMO, THIS is key. With intelligent conversation, with parent/child relationships, with healthy romantic relationships, with family drama, work squabbles, et al…if you can respectfully, calmly, honestly talk to me, you can disagree with me all day. The fact is all sides most likely have at least one valid point. There are all kinds of “right” and all kinds of “wrong”, often your vantage point influences the outcome just as much as the “facts”.
Respect. Get you some.
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Malcolm said, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”
Have you ever had someone come over your house and refuse to leave? They say, “It’s a free country.” I say if the big homie, Slim Jigga doesn’t want his son in a dress in his house, that’s perfectly fine. Are you going to be there with him when this happens:
Man Upstairs: You knew homosexuality was a sin and you did nothing about it, you even let it fester under your own roof?
Slim: I mean… I mean…
As people, we compromise our views everyday. I may feel differently than Slim, but he’s entitled to his opinion, especially in his own HOUSE.
It’s real easy to fold your cards. I’d say the controversy these days is not in those who support gay rights and marriage, but in those who oppose it. Those are the ones who are crucified.
Brother Martin said, “The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.”
PS – On the low, I use these two quotes to instigate discussion, because a lot of people pu**yfoot around the issue to remain PC. How will we ever have a real conversation, if we never are being real?
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CHeeKZ is the realist Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:10 pm
Dog how can you claim that people who oppose gay rights are being crucified WHEN THERE ARE ACTUALLY GAY PEOPLE BEING CRUCIFIED!
You can’t claim the underdog role when you are the incumbent. They have the status quo and the majority with them. YET the shrinking liberals and media are controversial and vilifying them?
You think the media’s position has anything to do with cyber bullying or unfair tactics? Isn’t that apart of gay rights? Isn’t that what those oppose to gay rights are fighting against? There fore they are FOR CYBERBULLYING. O those poor pro-cyberbullying lobbyist. I feel so bad for them.
Malcolm said, “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything.”
Explain to me exactly why a Klan member fighting against civil rights can’t say the same exact thing. The same thing! So why is it that Malcolm is revered and the Klan member disgusted? Liberty. In the long run, it liberty that decided the moral compass of this nation.
Its your house, raise the kind of kids you want. BUT just like society will mock a boy for wearing a dress, society should lock away any child that feels he can touch that boy b/c he has a dress on.
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Dr. J Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Chill fam. You not mad at my point, you shouting about some other ish. I didn’t say there were no hate crimes being committed against gays.
You mad at the wrong person, broseph.
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Sorry Slim, didn’t get to read the comments cause Im not even supposed to be on here. But I do like this post.
I must say, part of the divide in the Black community is the severe HOMOPHOBIA. This homophobia drives our Black men apart even more so than they may be now. It creates closet Gay men and Closet lesbians as well. Straight men are afraid to be affectionate to their wives, children, mothers and other loved ones for fear of being called homosexual. We are taught that to be that way isn’t wrong. Wrong or right, love and concern should be a bigger motive than FEAR for making our community better. If we relieve the FEAR of being homosexual in our community, perhaps we can start to mend some of the broken fences and conquer some of the divide. I am not saying to ENCOURAGE homosexuality, but not to SHUN those who are. Acceptance doesn’t not fuel enabling, it fuels LOVE.
While I agree as a parent you have the right to tell your child which way YOU feel is appropiate to dress, I don’t think it’s a parental right to try and extremely limit your child’s thinking and knowledge of life.
What I have noticed as a Black community is that we are still afraid to show lots of LOVE amongst eachother. There are many reason for that hesitation but I feel main factor in that is FEAR. Fear of getting hurt, fear of being rejected FURTHER by this society and fear of being seen as WEAK or SOFT.
In my opinion, nothing is showing how strong you are by showing how weak you are.
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
That last paragraph on love and fear is pretty much the basis for a lot of these heavy discussions. Excellent points. Glad you dropped by.
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Here’s a thought: If your 13 yo daughter came to you and said “Mom/Dad, I like to have chex and I am a nympho. Please buy me nympho clothes and toys so that I can have chex.” Would you support her? Or would you say not in my house?
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:35 am
I’d say “oh sh*t, I’m gonna be the father of the girl who gets to college and gets a train run on her by the bruhz” and then I’ll enroll her in therapy asap.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:47 am
I work with these kids. You’d be amazed the reactions that parents have…often these children come by it honestly…
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Satya Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Being a nympho is considered having a disease. As such, I would support my kid getting treatment b/c compulsively having sex can be harmful to his/her health.
Transgender folks don’t think they have a disease. They’re just changing to the gender they believe they were meant to be. There’s no treatment for this…
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:14 pm
I’d still get my kid in therapy. Feeling like you’re in the wrong body, that a mistake was made in your creation has to mess up your head a bit.
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Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:55 pm
In order to get the surgeries a person has to have therapy (I think a 6 mos – 1 yr) and have to live, exclusively, as their non-born sex … but that’s being a transsexual. Transgenders don’t get surgeries and primarily identify as the opposite gender; they can also identify as their outward gender … there r degrees of transgender-ness.
Also … it’s possible to be diagnosed with a Gender Identity Disorder (look it up in the DSM-IV-TR for specifics of that [it's too much to type here from my book on my cell])
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:16 pm
So is transgender a disease, a condition, a situation, or what? I don’t think we talked about that too much.
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Satya Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:41 pm
I guess a condition?… This is something i’d like to know as well. I know by trial and error transgender individuals do not believe it’s a disease.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Hmmm, good question. I’m not really sure how to categorize it and we just had training about it. I think it fits the description of a mutation, but that term is offensive to transgendered people for obvious reasons.
Their brains truly are different in most cases witch does elevate this above “mental disorder”. I wouldn’t categorize it as a disease as it is static and noncontagious. Though by some definitions it could be…
I hope someone has an answer for this question…interesting.
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Peyso Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:02 pm
What happens if she just likes chex? I mean that’s what she wants to do. Should I help her pick out 13yo mates? That’s supporting right? Or should I be reasonable and try to explain the feelings she has and that she will be able to explore them once she leaves my house?
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Starita34 Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:11 pm
and teach her the glory and wonder that is masturbationReply
Hugh Jazz Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Peyso: “Here’s a thought: If your 13 yo daughter came to you and said “Mom/Dad, I like to have chex and I am a nympho. Please buy me nympho clothes and toys so that I can have chex.” Would you support her? Or would you say not in my house”
This is exactly my thoughts on the matter. When you leave my house, you can wear as many dresses and duck as many sicks as you like. As long as I’m your legal guardian, it will not happen.
In the words of Jay-Z, “f*ck your feelings”.
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Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
WoW!!! You’d really think or even SAY that about your child’s emotions?
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Peyso Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Not all the time but in some cases, it is more than appropriate.
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Hugh Jazz Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:14 pm
Yes, I really think and say that about my child’s emotions. If my son wanted to sleep with every girl in class, or start drinking or taking drugs, or drop out of school, or bully people, or join a gang, or wear a dress, I will correct his behavior. I don’t care how he feels about it. Explain how this is wrong.
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Firstly- good post Slim. Quite proud of you for speaking out and changing the discussion topic.
Now in what may seem like a blatant 180 from my response yesterday I will agree that I will urge my son into wearing pants since it’s socially acceptable. However if at a reasonable age we’ve discussed it and he’s firmly against the pants thing…. He can wear what he wants (as long as it’s not personally coming from my closet lol).
I grew up ridiculously liberal despite having conservative parents. I was allowed to pretty much explore what I wanted (not talking about sexuality) and make my own paths in life. I looked to my parents as prototypes of what I wanted to be and tweaked my version to suit me. I’m pretty d@mn proud of myself if I may say so.
I say all this to note the “slippery slope” concept that the conversation seems to be diving into. Wearing sparkles during play time does not mean your kids are going to fall into a life of drugs and myspace porn. My parents trusted that they were putting in good values and I would come up with the right answer. When I feel? They were there. They gave advice and never tried to put themselves into me. This is the type of parent I want to be to my kid and I’d rather my son be a well educated moral man in a dress than a goon poppin caps. Not saying there’s no in between but that’s my position.
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I didn’t say it, but I meant to. Wonderful post Slim. The discussion is much needed. And I appreciate you taking the bullets.
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I just went through the post and comments on SBM and it was a good read. I think it’s wonderful that you have encouraged this discussion. That said, I will have to formulate a comment (one that will probably be long as can be) that easily gets my views across. In the meantime, let me just say that my opinion is more or less aligned with CHeeKZy’s.
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Sir Slim, I dom’t think you went off the deep end at all. You handled the issue with tact.
My thoughts overall. hmmm. Much like I said yesterday my child will NOT be swapping genders. Whomever I marry will have very similar child rearing beliefs. When they are grown if they chose to “live the life” cool, but when they come into my home they will dress as the gender I gave birth to.
I think parents have tried to become PC in their child rearing tactics b/c they don’t want to be a “bad” parent or old-fashioned. Forget that! Dr. J said upstream: If you don’t stand for something…” I stand against my daughter dressing in boys clothes, taking hormones to become a boy, my son wearing dresses and painting his nails. GTFOH! I also stand against my children bullying children who’s parents support their decision to transition. I’ll be the “bad” parent that spanks her children when they go way over the line, i will say to them “b/c I said so”, I will not negotiate with my children, i will not allow them to “transition”, I will not allow co-ed sleepovers, cursing at adults will not be deemed as my kid “expressing himself” or any of the other modern BS. Sorry for ranting. Basically what y’all said before: COMMUNICATION! talking with your potential spouse is so important.
SN- How can societies continue to grow with men that are now women, the reverse of <–, and rampant homosexuality? Did I miss a lesson in biology?
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There are several things that struck a chord with me..
I’m actually in the middle of a process that I hope will finally (FINALLY) bring my brother out of the closet. My mother is a “I don’t see it, it’s not happening” type of parent.. I think so many parents think of it as a failure towards their way of parenting, rather than just being able to finally be in an honest place and try to move forward.
My brother broke the straps on my prom dress when he was trying it on. He put on a virus on my computer looking at father/son p*rn.. I mean, how many hints do you need?
I honestly don’t know how I would handle it. My views might be skewed because I am in the middle of it. I watched it happen,from the first inclination to where it is now.
As far as a community, it has always been more exciting to complain about something than it is to come up with the answers that would alleviate the issue. That means that there would be nothing else to be angry at. As well as I think that people not only don’t know where to start with rectifying the problem, but are also scared of how much work it’ll take.
I’ve seen it in my family. My mother knows that if she isn’t interested in actually fixing the problem, then I won’t listen to her complain about it. How many people are angry with everything political, yet didn’t vote yesterday? Sex will always sell. The topics that don’t involve much thought will always get more comments than those that force someone to examine themselves.
That’s just how it goes..
Write what you feel.. At the end of the day, you only answer to yourself.. And even if others don’t follow, you were true to you.. that’s all that matters..
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 1:55 pm
My brother broke the straps on my prom dress when he was trying it on.
^^^Did you whoop his a$$? If someone broke the straps on my prom dress, i’m wailing on them #JustSaying
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CHeeKZ is the realist Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:15 pm
negro did you just tell me to not use violence against my child to correct his behavior? O but if its Dior its ok?
lol. j/k.
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 2:47 pm
You are a mess…and i don’t fuxs with designer labels like that so you won’t find them in my house…my children will not be label whores but they will know to shop for what looks good on them! lol
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Nick@Nite Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 3:17 pm
prom was over by the time he got to it.. therefore I did not care anymore.. but at 17, i knew what time it was with my brother..
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L. Dejean Reply:
November 4th, 2010 at 12:24 am
oh ok…i thought he broke the straps before prom happened! *whew* but yea, its definitely time to let that rainbow light shine…trust me when i say, i understand how you feel Nick, i truly, truly do.
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Sorry for being absent…
many things that we sweep under the rug that seriously deserves discussion as we’re getting to know each other on a deeper level. I believe that we struggle to establish a family upfront because we don’t do our due diligence to address truly important issues.
#POW! In the same manner we discuss finances, conversations on raising children (or whether or not you even want to have children, etc) need to be held before you put a ring on it. Yes, I believe you can fall in love with whomever you fall in love with; however, me as a Christian probably wouldn’t have a lasting marriage with a Jew.
Whatchu mean Jesus is not the messiah?Nor could a marriage work with me and someone who did not seek higher education (but I could be wrong?) So now while I get all excited and start buying college hoodies for my child, my husband is saying in the other ear, “college aint for everybody.” I’m just saying, if there are fundamental differences in thought and ideology, those need to be recognized early.To address your actual post Slim, I have given cursory thought to the possibility of having to raise a homosexual child. Honestly, I try not to think about it though out of fear of the plausibility (yep, I said fear.) I don’t know what I’d do, but I would sure have some initial feeling of disappointment. I will end with a view shared by one of my friends in HS who was our star running back. He said “If my son was gay, I would tell him, hit the floor and do some push-ups!” #dead
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Sheera Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Random FYI – there are loads of Jews who believe Jesus was the messiah they just dint believe he is God, as the trinity seems to indicate (I’m not Christian or Jew so I could be wrong).
I actually don’t understand not having these conversations … talk about child rearing when you are talking about religion, politics, and sex … at least that’s a part of my paradigm. If it can be discussed I’m going to talk about it … ESPECIALLY if I feel like/think I love a guy!
And your HS friend was funny for that … it is a viable option (but it’s not really the best thing to use exercise as a punishment)
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nyhoop Reply:
November 3rd, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Yes, I know there are tons of “Jews for Jesus” They hand out the pamphlets all the time, lol. I’m just saying that it is very difficult to work around passionate differences, especially when its time to impart those wisdoms upon your children…
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Great post, Slim. Awesome, actually.
I read yesterday’s post, and I am one blog reader that prefers actual though provoking blogs to the the entertainment, sex, BET/MTV Awards type of posts. Keep up the good work.
A few points… If my son, say at the age of 3, shows an interest in my bright and shiny things, I will not allow him to wear, try on, or play in my things. See, I don’t think a child who likes bright, sparkly items are exhibiting anything more than a child’s fascination with bright, sparkly things. Most small children I know like things like that, and I don’t see why I should foster an assumption based on my own fear of being deemed homophobic or unsupportive of my child’s “true self”.
Listening to some black, ultra-liberal women, you would think that gay black men have to be extremely fem, women’s clothes wearing men. What about the support for our gay brothas who would rather watch football than ANTM? Men who don’t have aspirations to be on RHOA? Are we showing them this same rabid support, or have we decided that they are probably members of that dreaded Downlow Brotha Club? How many non-feminine images of gay black men do we see in the media? Not many, at least not that I can recall. It just seems that some are more comfortable with homosexuality if the gay man in question fits the mold that heterosexuals have created; sissy, little girls. As long as gay black fit into this caricature, the ultra black liberal(usually female) is very, very comfortable, and will support them with every fiber of their body. It makes me angry, b/c these images are not representative of the gay men I know? And they aren’t comfortable either b/c this has become the expectation of being gay, which, in some cases, makes it hard to some black men to come out. Not just that their family may have a problem with it, so-called supporters won’t really accept them if they aren’t wearing make-up, women’s clothing, speak with no bass in their voice, and are mimicking actions usually associated with a woman.
As for the Vibe article, I thought it was a sensational piece of journalistic crap, a la, FOXNews. Not because she didn’t say anything supportive about Morehouse, but because she went for the sensational story, and left out a ton of facts, facts that a true journalist would have at least mentioned, but of course, that would have taken away from the image she wanted to paint for the readers. Sensationalism and attention-whoredom. Now, I shouldn’t have to say this, but because I know someone will scream that I’m being homophobic, this paragraph does not diminish the fact that there is homophobia in the black community, Morehouse included. It is to say that it was a horrible article, and black people need to do better about just jumping onto the hot thing, and thus, making themselves look foolish.
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Communication is one of, if not the most important, aspects of a relationship. It’s an area where I think we struggle significantly because of our pride and our hesitancy to tackle subjects that actually matter. But of course, that’s just my 2 cents.
Without getting into it, thanks for saying this. I agree 137%.
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I dont think the stance you’ve taken is hardly dangerous nor bad. While my child is a toddler he/she will dress as their sex. Not to say they may not already know what gender they identify with (I wont discredit that arguement I’m not a scientist), but I will try to influence it while they are still a child. It it goes into the preteen years and they still want to be the opposite I will likely adjust my position on the issue. My 3 year old son will not be a Princess even if it is Halloween.
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Damn school. Kept me out of the mix all day…
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Mr. Slim, supposing when he is an adult he asks you to come to his house only wearing a red dress. Would you do it out of a “mutual respect” thing?
Of course from this point on the discussion becomes ridiculous and I will tell you why. You REFUSE to accept that a man can be different from you. Your son has to be a mini you or else you will not respect his choices.
This is what I hear from your comment: I will raise you to be a straight masculine man in the exact manner in which I was raised and if you disappoint me by being someone else then I will still talk to you, but don’t you dare bring your gayness around here! You hear me boy?!
It is the arrogance of every parent or would be parent, to assume that the same sex child they have will be like them in every regard.
It is also very narrow minded to think that every gay man’s wish is to wear a dress and red high heels. I know gay men with more masculinity I’ve seen in straight men.
Finally, you do realize what “support” means? Marching with PFLAG, meeting his boyfriends and friends, going to his halloween parties (in a red dress).
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I don’t know if anyone is still reading this, but this post struck a nerve. I’m not sure why black people are so afraid of homosexuality when it occurs naturally in every species and there are homosexuals in every single country in the world whether majority black, white or other. I’m African and bounced around the world growing up with religiously conservative but socially liberal (to a point) parents. I think that a refusal to either discuss homosexuality or accept gender as a natural phenomenon causes more trouble than it helps things. Refusing to accept someone’s true nature means you are asking them to hide who they are from you and I would never be comfortable doing that. I may not understand it or be like that myself but I would always support others’ rights to be authentically themselves.
If I had a son who wanted to play dress-up and wear girl’s clothing I would treat it as having a child who wanted to play dress-up and try on other things until there was reason for me to think any differently. I grew up a very creative child and I’m convinced that I thought I was a boy for the longest time. Making a ruckus out of the fact that a boy wants to wear a dress or a girl pretending to be a boy sends the message that there is something grievously wrong with it when really in that moment, especially in the case of young children it’s more about adventure, playing and fantasy. Funnily I read this article this morning which kind of relates and I fully see the mother’s point http://nerdyapplebottom.com/2010/11/02/my-son-is-gay/
It’s interesting Slim, because in your post yesterday, you wondered how truthful the black dad was being by supporting his son and that he was not trying to guide him toward masculinity. But what I saw in the clip was the exact opposite, his dad is clearly male and thus masculine, he has an older brother whose taste seems to run more towards traditional conceptions of masculinity so why should he try to force the issue right now? Nowhere in the discussion did it seem like Dyson wants to be a girl, just that he likes dresses and sparkles, in fact the book is called “My princess boy”. He may very well in a few years wake up and become a surly teenager who marvels at the fact that all his childhood pictures are of him in dresses and wonders why his parents let him get away with it.
One last quick point – I do apologize for the length, my first post and all that – I think part of the trouble with these discussions is that when discussing homosexuality or gender issues people derail the conversation (don’t know whether the derailing is conscious or not) with comments about gay men in dresses, nympho teenagers or religious or cultural references that have nothing to do with the price of oil in China. If you have a gay child, forcing him or her not to wear dresses or to only wear military garb will not change the fact of his/her sexual orientation and similarly if your child is heterosexual the fact that for a hot minute in his childhood he regularly got into his sisters barbies and favored sparkly colors or clothes doesn’t change his orientation or make him transitionally female while he did so. Making an issue of it will only make people feel that they have something to either hide or be ashamed of.
– Teminator (a girl who dismembered every doll she had!)
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Slim Jackson Reply:
November 5th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
Hey, thanks for the in-depth comment. I always come back and read these. I’m glad the post/dialogue got you thinking, even if it struck a nerve. I can’t reply to all of this right now, but hope you’ll be back to join the dialogue in the future.
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Starita34 Reply:
November 8th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Thanks for the link to that article. I loved it. And THIS –> “Thirdly, I am not worried that your son will grow up to be an actual ninja so back off.” had me rolllllin down the river!
I appreciate your perspective. Welcome out of the depths of Lurkinvilletonshire.
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